145 replies to this topic

[aquaelvis]

Still not a big deal... load from the top or just pull the upper off. (or switch the mag if you are feeling lucky) Just don't ever do it at the range!!!You will be at the mercy of your local DA.The biggest problem here is that it is a FELONY. It is not like hunting on some land that you think might be public. You can roll the dice on that but this would make you a felon... no voting, no hunting, no guns... EVER

[Fjold]

Please read further.The DOJ regulations define "detachable magazine" as any magazine that doesn't require a tool to remove. A bullet tip is considered a tool. Thus the bullet button (BB) was designed and produced. The magazine is irrelevant. What makes the BB legal is that it converts the rifle in such a way that it forces the user to use a tool to release the magazine EVERY TIME a magazine is attached. Thus rendering the rifle incapable of accepting a detachable magazine.So, no matter the state of the rifle (magazine in, magazine out or on its way out), it still can't accept a detachable magazine.

[aquaelvis]

Well, you can think that way. The important thing not to over-look is that at the EXACT time you have a "evil" AR and drop the mag you have now made something else. (felony) It widely accepted by calguns.net that an open mag well on an "off list lower" is a felony. A good thread on the bullet button is here:http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=46802&page=14Since you are local I would caution you NOT to bring an open mag well / bullet button AR to Five Dogs!!!In any event, I spent 12 hours over a 2 day period reading hundreds of posts about this topic. Originally I was with the bullet button makes everything OK camp, but lots of reading changed my mind. If calguns.net says NOT to do it, I'll stick with them. To each his own but people should know there are big risks when having an open mag well on an AR in CA.Also, do your BB's need a tool to put the mag in? (or just to take out)

[Cranky Farmer]

I know several LEO's that are chomping at the bit to see someone pull a mag out at the range.

If they do arrest someone while off duty for this they better prey that the court agrees with them or they could find themselves in an ugly law suite.

[aquaelvis]

If they do arrest someone while off duty for this they better prey that the court agrees with them or they could find themselves in an ugly law suite.

I am no expert but I am pretty sure that if they see a felony being committed, they HAVE to do something. I do know that many of them call it in, then give a statemement when an on duty LEO shows up. Then they are a witness. (but carry more weight in court, as they are LE) I know a few guys that have done that on DUI's and domestics while off duty.

[Cranky Farmer]

Agreed. But if this hypothetical case were to happen, or when it does, and the case were to be dismissed the ambulance chasers would be lined up to file law suites on the guys behalf against the officer(s). Just as I wouldn't want to be the guy arrested I wouldn't want to be the arresting officer if the BB were found to be legal. Too many less than clear laws for my liking.This very topic is why I just decided to take my OLL back to MO over a year ago and leave it there. If the DOJ ever sorts this mess out it (my OLL) is registered in my name here in KA so I can always bring it back.

[zippy1970]

I have read everything everyone has to say . some believe it is legal and others believe it is not . I have in excess of $25,000. worth of guns and if they take one they may want them all . I do not risk it . also just because you are not prosecuded does not mean that an officer cannot arrest you nor confiscate your firearm(s) until the d.a. desides otherwise . That's why zi load from the top . too much too risk and not deep enough pockets .

[wannakillacoyote]

Man, you guys have me freaked out now. I don't think I will even take it to 5 dogs (no need to have all those eyes on me). I'm also thinking that when out hunting, I will just take one magazine (so it doesn't appear that I could rapidly switch magazines). And I guess, lastly if anyone other than my hunting party is around, I will open the top to load. This kinda sucks though as everything I had read (including calguns.net) said the bullet button makes it all OK. I even started my own post a couple days ago asking about having flash supressors,and everyone said I am totally legal if I have the BB. I don't want to be illegal, but I do plan to use my AR as my primary Yote gun, so I will be out with it often.

[Camoghost]

Just my opinion here, if your building a bench gun or a real accurate shooter, why would you want a telescopic stock? I would try every way possible to make mine look like less of an "assault weapon". People are lame and why bring attention to yourself? Even if it is totally legal, too many LEO’s do not know the law and once they get your gun.. Good luck on getting it back.

[Fjold]

Well, you can think that way. The important thing not to over-look is that at the EXACT time you have a "evil" AR and drop the mag you have now made something else. (felony) It widely accepted by calguns.net that an open mag well on an "off list lower" is a felony. A good thread on the bullet button is here:http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=46802&page=14Since you are local I would caution you NOT to bring an open mag well / bullet button AR to Five Dogs!!!In any event, I spent 12 hours over a 2 day period reading hundreds of posts about this topic. Originally I was with the bullet button makes everything OK camp, but lots of reading changed my mind. If calguns.net says NOT to do it, I'll stick with them. To each his own but people should know there are big risks when having an open mag well on an AR in CA.Also, do your BB's need a tool to put the mag in? (or just to take out)

I don't just think that way, I also rely on the collective brain trust at Calguns.net. I've been a regular there since 2004 and have over 4,000 posts on that board. When the Bullet Button first came out over a year ago the common opinion was that removing the magazine would make the gun illegal until calmer heads prevailed and a strict interpretation of the law as written was applied. Now it is the concensus opinion that the law specifically requires that if the rifle requires a tool to detach the magazine that it is legal in any configuration.I have had my top loading and BB equipped rifles at 5 Dogs numerous times and the only questions that I get are "How do I get one?". I point them toward Calguns.net. The Bullet Button is designed to comply with the exact definition in the law that says a it is not a detachable magazine if it requires a tool to remove it from the gun.The law says: (underline added by me)5469. (a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. How the magazine is put in the rifle does not matter to California law Here is the exact law defining Assault Weapons characteristics: http://ag.ca.gov/fir...s/chapter39.pdfHere is the definitive post on the subject by HoffmanG:http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=45321&highlight=%22open+Magwell%22More recent postings on the subject are here:http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=90365&highlight=%22open+Magwell%22http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=87811&highlight=%22open+Magwell%22http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=82513&highlight=%22open+Magwell%22And do you think that Wes (Ten Percent Firearms) would put this up on his website if he thought that is was even marginally questionable?http://www.tenpercen...?main_page=ar15People should assess their own risk tolerence but I just wanted to get more information out as opposed to just one person's opinion.

[Jeff]

How good of an idea would it be to have a sticky with CA legal AR builds of the guns in the club, I know it would help me when I go to build mine. I know there's a bunch of other sites out there that have it (Calguns, etc.) but why not have info straight from the guys we all know? Just a thought.

[ShooterJohn]

I can make this a sticky if you like?

[Cranky Farmer]

Is HoffmanG an attorney? I am not great at deciphering leagaleze and would love to get more opinions from those who are in he business.

[woodog]

. . .I'm also thinking that when out hunting, I will just take one magazine (so it doesn't appear that I could rapidly switch magazines). And I guess, lastly if anyone other than my hunting party is around, I will open the top to load. . . . I don't want to be illegal, but I do plan to use my AR as my primary Yote gun, so I will be out with it often.

If your are using an AR as your primary hunting rifle do your really need the capability to "rapidly switch magazines"? Chances are that if you load ten rounds at the begining of the day you will have eight to ten rounds still in the mag at the end of the day. You can always top load a round or two after you shoot if you really feel that you need that ten-round capability. If you really had an opportunity to fire ten quick rounds while hunting I would like to go with you. My guess is that the barrel will be so hot after ten quick rounds are pumped through it that you won't know where the last few rounds went. The possibilty of a quick follow up shot or two is why I bought a Keltec SU-16A. The removable mag is a bonus because it allows you to quickly unload the rifle for transporting in a vehicle. Unloading a ten-round top loading mag is a real pain in the butt. The removable mag has turned out to be more important to me than having ten rounds at my immediate disposal.No matter who interprets the law it doesn't mean a thing until it is tested in a court of law and I wouldn't want to be the subject of that test case. If I were a gun dealer I would not want some pointing to my web site as verification that something is legal as a means of defense in a court case.

[aquaelvis]

Fjold, maybe we aren't talking about the same point. I am 100% in agreement that you can have an off list lower AR style rifle in CA. If it has a bullet button you can have all the evil stuff. My concern is what that rifle becomes when the mag is removed. You keep talking about the bullet button, which is fine but I am talking open mag well.

I don't just think that way, I also rely on the collective brain trust at Calguns.net. I've been a regular there since 2004 and have over 4,000 posts on that board.

Every quote I have posted is FROM calguns.net.

From calguns.net:Only after a fixed low-capacity magazine is attached and screwed down should the pistol grip and/or folding or telestock be attached. Conversely, if the fixed magazine on the rifle needs to be removed for repair or cleaning, the pistol grip and/or telestock, folding stock or thumbhole stock must be removed first.NEVER HAVE AN OFF-LIST LOWER RECEIVER WITH AN OPEN MAGAZINE WELL AND A PISTOL GRIP OR FOLDING (etc.) STOCK STILL ATACHED - EVEN FOR A MOMENT!! ALSO, NEVER PUT A BARRELED UPPER RECEIVER WITH A FLASH HIDER ON AN OFF-LIST LOWER , UNLESS A NONDETACHABLE LO-CAP MAG HAS ALREADY BEEN AFFIXED.See : http://calguns.net/a...fornia_arak.htm

Those quotes are ALL from CG.net's web site, from THEIR AR pages. (not posts from misc users but from CG.net themselves.)

The Bullet Button is designed to comply with the exact definition in the law that says a it is not a detachable magazine if it requires a tool to remove it from the gun.

Yep, right on. My point though, when the mag well is full, it is not able to accept a removable mag. If a mag is IN the well, no other mag can be attached, right? OK, it is legal. Take the mag out (with evil features still attached) and now the gun is capable of accepting a detachable mag. That is the letter of the law. Could you stick a modified mag in at that time that would not allow the BB to work? Yes. So, at the time the well is OPEN, the rifle is capable of accepting a detachable mag and in an assault rifle. The law is not about the detaching mag, it is about the capability of attchment. (with a mag in place there is NO way to attach a detachable magazine, with an open well there is)

And do you think that Wes (Ten Percent Firearms) would put this up on his website if he thought that is was even marginally questionable?http://www.tenpercen...?main_page=ar15

Also you mentioned Wes, I read you link and see no place where he says it is OK to have the mag out of the gun. In fact, I have not read that in any link. But on that page you linked to he also links a page on calguns.net:From him site:

For more detailed information you can refer to the Bill Wiese California AR/AK Series Assault Weapon FAQ

The quote from Bill Wiese's page on calguns.net clears states: (in type size & in it's own box on the page) NEVER HAVE AN OFF-LIST LOWER RECEIVER WITH AN OPEN MAGAZINE WELL AND A PISTOL GRIP OR FOLDING (etc.) STOCK STILL ATACHED - EVEN FOR A MOMENT!! ALSO, NEVER PUT A BARRELED UPPER RECEIVER WITH A FLASH HIDER ON AN OFF-LIST LOWER , UNLESS A NONDETACHABLE LO-CAP MAG HAS ALREADY BEEN AFFIXED.So the people that Wes links people to For more detailed information (his words) agree that you should never have an open mag well. And calguns.net agress. So if you have a link that has info about open mag wells being OK, please post it. I have not seen it and would like to. Also, I am not trying to be a dick here, this is really important stuff. (a felony could ruin someone's life) If it as you say, hell I'd be very happy. That would be awesome. I originally thought the same way you do about the bullet button. Only after hours of reading did I learn otherwise. But like I said, if there is info to the contrary, please let me (us) know. I'd be happy to be wrong in this case! People should not be freaked out about getting an AR though. There is only one sticking point that I have seen. (open mag well) Everything else seems fine. In my case, I want to use it for coyotes and messing around. It will not be a big deal to load from the top. (or pull the upper off, 2 pins, and switch the mag) If you wanted to go out and blast away, maybe that would be a drag but for me I don't think it will be anything to worry about. Hell, they hold 10 rounds! If I was close to my truck, I don't think I would worry to much about switching mags while the rifle was on the backseat. I just would not do it while it was out in the open. (but, to each his own)

[Fishwrestler]

Yep, right on. My point though, when the mag well is full, it is not able to accept a removable mag. If a mag is IN the well, no other mag can be attached, right? OK, it is legal. Take the mag out (with evil features still attached) and now the gun is capable of accepting a detachable mag. That is the letter of the law. Could you stick a modified mag in at that time that would not allow the BB to work? Yes. So, at the time the well is OPEN, the rifle is capable of accepting a detachable mag and in an assault rifle. The law is not about the detaching mag, it is about the capability of attchment. (with a mag in place there is NO way to attach a detachable magazine, with an open well there is)

The bullet button requires a tool to reinsert the magazine. So it is not a etachable mag per the letter of the law. You can not just put the magazine back into the gun you must use a tool to do this so with an empty magazine well and a bullet button you are meeting the ltter of the law. SHooter I think this would make a great sticky. A very educational thread for all too read. Every comment has cuased me to go reread information to make sure I feel safe dropping the mag on my OLL with a bullet button in place. thank you everyone for their great input Robert

[ShooterJohn]

It's already been pinned so here it stays for everybody to make their own choice.

[aquaelvis]

The bullet button requires a tool to reinsert the magazine

You can not just put the magazine back into the gun you must use a tool to do this so with an empty magazine well and a bullet button

I can't speak for your BB but mine is not like that. I called my FFL and asked him if he knows of any that require the tool to be used to put the mag in and he does not. (what brand is yours, I think mine is a Prince 50)My BB is like a normal mag release, you just need a "tool" instead of a finger to pop it out. And like all other mags I have seen, you just slide it back in and it locks into place.

[wannakillacoyote]

If your are using an AR as your primary hunting rifle do your really need the capability to "rapidly switch magazines"? The possibilty of a quick follow up shot or two is why I bought a Keltec SU-16A. The removable mag is a bonus because it allows you to quickly unload the rifle for transporting in a vehicle. Unloading a ten-round top loading mag is a real pain in the butt. The removable mag has turned out to be more important to me than having ten rounds at my immediate disposal.

I was actually thinking about this today. It would be a rare occasion to shoot more than a few rounds in a day Coyote hunting. In that scenario, I would definitely not need an additional mag. If I was to use this for jacks or squirrels, the numbers could go up. Still, it would not be that big of a deal to break the top open and reload.One other thing, it was my understanding that while in a hunting area, as long as your Rifle was unloaded (no round in the chamber) and was not within reach while driving, you could keep rounds in the magazine. In a AR it would be hard to have a mag in, and a round not chambered unless you just had the bolt open (that is unless you removed the Non-removable magazine). Does that make sense?

Just my opinion here, if your building a bench gun or a real accurate shooter, why would you want a telescopic stock? I would try every way possible to make mine look like less of an "assault weapon". People are lame and why bring attention to yourself?

If you were talking to me, I want this to be accurate, but this will not be a 200+yd AR. I am building this to be small and light for quick movement but hopefully pretty accurate to 150+yds. Therefore the adjustable stock fit the bill.Hopefully you are talking about the LEO's being lame in not knowing the letter of the law. I'm one of those guys that makes it a point not to break laws. I'm very particular about that. I know we are a dying breed, but I follow the rules. In this case, I feel we are not breaking any laws, but I will try to avoid any un-needed attention while still using my AR.

I can't speak for your BB but mine is not like that. I called my FFL and asked him if he knows of any that require the tool to be used to put the mag in and he does not. (what brand is yours, I think mine is a Prince 50)My BB is like a normal mag release, you just need a "tool" instead of a finger to pop it out. And like all other mags I have seen, you just slide it back in and it locks into place.

You are correct. My magazine when it arrives will just slide right into my BB receiver. No tool required.As for the law on how the magazine is removed or whether it can accept a removable magazine, they seem like two separate laws to me. I haven't went to the other links provided, but they appear to be referencing opposite issues. Hey everybody, look at me......I've been pinned!!!Hope to have my evil upper by early next week.

[homemade]

Is there anywhere near fresno to buy the stripped lowers?

[zippy1970]

this reminds me of the mailorder switchblade knifes that used to be sold through mailorder . they would sell you the knife with the spring removed . which was legal . therefor it was a lockback knife . but if you installed the spring , you were breaking the law . as long as they are allowed to sell it , being whatever it is , they will continue to sell it . for anyone to sell off list lowers is fine . its what you do with it after you have it that can be legal or illegal .

[Fjold]

Here is Bweise' response to the Calguns moderator Leelaw's (who is a lawyer IIRC) statement that an open magwell makes no difference to a fixed magazine (BB) built OLL:Quote:Originally Posted by leelaw An open magazine well is not illegal, nor does the magazine well define if it can accept or deny a detachable magazine. The mechanism used to catch/hold/release the magazine determines if it has a "capacity to accept a detachable magazine."Since a detachable magazine is defined as one that can be released without the use of a tool, a bullet button-modified AR15 style lower is one that can not accept detachable magazines since it requires the use of a tool to release the magazine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Pretty good. Let's just say that an open magwell that allows the mag to be removed without any tool is illegal - if it's on a semiauto centerfire rifle with any evil features.__________________-----------------------Bill WieseHere is the difference between a Bullet Button and a Prince 50 mag lock:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------I think the confussion that everyone is having is the difference between the Prince 50 vs. BBPlease correct me if I am wrong, but the Prince-50 requires a (10 round) mag be continually "locked-in" to the magwell continually since it takes a tool to attach it. If you inserted a mag into a OLL with a Prince-50 "WITHOUT" locking it in place, you would in effect have an assault weapon.The BB does not have to have a mag inserted into it since the mag locks automatically when it is 'attached'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Here is Gene Hoffman's synopsis of the regulation and Bwiese's agreement with it including the statement that he needs to update his earlier post about it:----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I believe that Bill is working on updates to the memos and FAQs.The bullet button complies with CA law using a slightly different method than the old fashioned Prince-50.Penal Code 12276.1. says:Quote:(a) (1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following: It does not say:Quote:(a) (1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept an attachable or detachable magazine and any one of the following: The phrase "Detachable Magazine" is a specific defined term:Quote:CCR 5469.(a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool… And the reason the term is defined that way is the SKS issue. In the 2000 Rulemaking that implemented SB-23. This is what they had to say about the SKS:Quote:CommentA1.12 - The SKS rifle with a detachable magazine cannot be changed without using a bullet tip as a tool, thus the regulations conflict with the specific listing of SKS rifles with detachable magazines in the Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Control Act. DOJ has no authority to contradict existing law. DOJ ResponseThe Department disagrees with the comment because any magazine that requires the use of a bullet or any other tool for its removal is a fixed magazine, not a detachable magazine. The SKS with a true detachable magazine does not require a bullet or any other tool to remove and is a controlled assault weapon under Penal Code section 12276. Identifying a bullet as a tool allows for the proper categorization of an SKS with a fixed magazine. Therefore, the SKS referred to in the comment has a fixed, not detachable magazine. From http://ag.ca.gov/fir...s/regs/fsor.pdf-Gene__________________"The problem with being a gun rights supporter is that the left hates guns and the right hates rights" -Anon Updated for 2008... Thanks GOP. hoffmang --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #6 03-23-2007, 11:47 AM Jicko Quote:Originally Posted by RobG I read Bill Wiese's "memo" and it stated that a "fixed magazine should never be removed while a PG or tele stock is attached. So what is the point of the BB? You still have to open the gun to load, correct?Trying to decide between the BB or MM config. Maybe both to satisfy my paranoia The OLD way of "fixing the magazine"(sport conv kit, washer-nut fixing the magazine catch, SemiAutoSam fix mag button, or the prince50 set-screw magazine button) will render the lower receiver capable of accepting a "detachable" magazine in your process of removing the "fixed magazine"; since in order to remove the magazine, you will have to remove the "magazine fixing mechanism", and without such mechanism in place, your lower receiver will be able to accept a magazine that is detachable without the use of a tool; hence, an illegal AW if with the PG or any other evil features.The NEW way of "fixing the magazine" is the "Bullet Button", which allows the removal for the magazine with the use of a tool, hence, such magazine is NOT by definition of the law, a "detachable magazine"! And you DO NOT need to remove the "Bullet Button" in order to remove the magazine; therefore, the mechanism that keep the OLL legal is still in place. Last but not least, if you EVER have to remove your "bullet button", be SURE to follow Bill's original advice, remove the pistol grip, and remove all evil features from the lower receiver before proceeding with the removal of the "bullet button".Last edited by Jicko : 03-23-2007 at 11:50 AM. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #7 03-23-2007, 11:49 AM bwiese Yes, Gene's summary is correct.Remember that when the FAQ/memo were created we were hyperconservative. We now realize that there is more room to manuever. In addition, a receiver with a pistol grip and/or telestock is NOT a semiauto centerfire rifle: you can have a 22LR or a manual-cycled upper on it with an open magwell and any or all 'characteristic features'.Apologies, I am working on finishing new/updated docs reflecting this - but as soon as I get a work project in fair shape (prerelease firmware, etc.)__________________-----------------------Bill WieseSan Jose --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[wannakillacoyote]

this reminds me of the mailorder switchblade knifes that used to be sold through mailorder . they would sell you the knife with the spring removed . which was legal . therefor it was a lockback knife . but if you installed the spring , you were breaking the law . as long as they are allowed to sell it , being whatever it is , they will continue to sell it . for anyone to sell off list lowers is fine . its what you do with it after you have it that can be legal or illegal .

I think this is similar. If we were just building standard AR's without the BB or Prince50 it would be the same as the scenario you are describing. By adding the BB or Prince50 we are complying with the current law and making our AR's Non Assault Weapons by definition. I would compare your scenario to someone buying all the AR parts then doing a little work to make it Fully Automatic which is clearly illegal (unless you are LEO or something).PS, for those of you looking Bud's just added a smokin deal on a Doublestar Lower for $99 DELIVERED!Doublestar Lower

Is there anywhere near fresno to buy the stripped lowers?

If you are willing to drive to Bako, PM me and I will give you my local FFL. Or you can drive to Taft and get them from 10percentfirearms.

[wannakillacoyote]

One more item I was thinking of. Would it not look or appear more legal if we were actually using a "TOOL" to remove the magazine. I understand the whole "a bullet is not your finger and therefore a tool" arguement, but a bullet is also a bullet. Soo, I was thinking of bringing some sort of "TOOL" with me to do the removing. Say an allen wrench or even better I have a pool chalk holder (to put in your pocket when playing pool) and it is black, but clearly not a bullet. Just a thought.

[woodog]

Wouldn't if be a lot simpler just to have a design that requires a screw driver (or coin) to turn a half-turn cam lock to release the mag on a hunting AR? Or are we really trying to make an illegal assault rifle appear to be legal by using a bullet as a tool? If you really need the capability of changing out a dozen 30 rounds mags to defend your home then keep that gun close at hand in your home and don't take it hunting. If you do use it to defend your home you will still have some big time explaining to do because the gun is still illegal. Get yourself a 12ga tactical shotgun with a cylinder bore and load it up with as many shells you can get in it with the plug removed, strap your Clock (or whatever to your side) and fire away. Sure we can use the Second Amendment rights argument, but we are shoveling dog poop (for the record, I didn't say dog poop) against the tide. Are we giving the anti's more ammunition by showing that we are resourceful and can work around the "intent" of the law? If we can do it so can the gang bangers who we think should the ones denied their Second Amendment rights. It's a tough issue.And no, I don't hate black guns. I just think owning one can be more hassle than it is worth. We saw at least 15 vehicles in CP Sunday and they surely weren't hunters. That is the greatest number I have seen there in one day over the past ten years. Had we been hunting with "legal" ARs and any of the occupants of those 15 vehicles had called BLM, F&G or the sheriff it might have invoked a response that could have been unpleasant including the impounding of the rifles until you proved it was legal, a court appearance, attorney costs, etc. Someone mentioned Ten Percent Firearms. Ask Wes about the guy from Visalia who came to the shop about a month ago trying to get copies of receipts for his father who had bought accessories for his California-legal AR. In fact, as I recall, he was talking Keltec CAs. His father had a heart attack while working on the guns and the family called 911. Paramedics, the fire department and law enforcement all arrived in short order to assist his dad who was taken to the hospital. And THEN, the LEOs confiscated the illegal firearms and the son was trying to prove that the guns and accessories were California legal. Don't know the final outcome.I wish you guys luck with you sort of California-legal ARs. I don't think that "they" will let us get away with it much longer.Woodog

[Fishwrestler]

Or are we really trying to make an illegal assault rifle appear to be legal by using a bullet as a tool? Woodog

We are not trying to make anything illegal appear legal. We are building AR 15's with OLL in a legal manner as the law allows. a OLL with a bullet button is not an assulat rifle per CA law. SO WE are not making something illegal legal, but building AR 15's in a configeration that meeet the requirments of the law. I was never interested in this type of gun then shot a friends squirrel hunting and enjoyed so now I want one. I thank the people who have made the process alot easier by asking the DOJ for clarification on laws and have challenged the law to allow me the freedom to make the choice of buidlign one of these rifles. Also when we start using terms and definitions the anti gunners have made up we buy into their whole game. What prevents them from coming after my semi auto shot gun I use for duck hunting next??? You do not have to want an AR 15, but as a gun owner I feel if I do not support efforts to prevent anti guns laws and for the staste, DOJ, and local goverments to enforce the laws as writen and not interpret them as they see fit then there is nothing to say one f your guns maybe next on the list. Robert

[aquaelvis]

Frank, thanks for posting that info. That does require more thought on the issue. Although, it would be better if someone went to court on it as this is all still one (or more) person's view of the law. But the posts you quoted make sense. I am still unsure if I personally would do it, as the cost of being wrong FAR, FAR out weights the good. I hope calguns.net updates all their info soon, that is the best source for info on our laws so it really needs to be up to date! I plan to print the memo from cg.net and keep it with my AR when out in public with it. Sure would be a lot better to have one that did not say that the mag well must always be full. As for using a "real" tool for the BB, not needed. DOJ has already agreed that a bullet is in fact a "tool" in their eyes so that is really not an issue for concern. Capitol, I have read up plenty. (too much over the past month, my head hurts) Take a look at the quotes I posted from calguns.net, I read those before I posted them I still don't believe that an open mag well is an open and shut issue. There are still very big issues, one being that many of the LEO's I have asked have said they would arrest someone with an open mag well. These were guys I just asked off the street, some probably do not know what I am talking about but answer anyway. Good info guys!

[woodog]

We are not trying to make anything illegal appear legal. We are building AR 15's with OLL in a legal manner as the law allows. a OLL with a bullet button is not an assulat rifle per CA law. SO WE are not making something illegal legal, but building AR 15's in a configeration that meeet the requirments of the law. Robert

We don't disagree Robert, but I believe that "meeting the requirement of the law" has yet to be defined. I guess I'll have to buy one of these damn black guns just to prove that I'm not against you all. Damn, that means I'll have to put my Extrema II on hold for awhile. SteveH.

[Cranky Farmer]

I still don't believe that an open mag well is an open and shut issue. There are still very big issues, one being that many of the LEO's I have asked have said they would arrest someone with an open mag well. These were guys I just asked off the street, some probably do not know what I am talking about but answer anyway.

And there lies our problem. The CA DOJ refuses to put in print that we are correct OR wrong with our take on the BB. Instead of being pro-active and working with pro gun groups such as CalGuns to come to complete understanding of this law they (CA DOJ) would rather wait until they have their chance to ruin some guys life in court. They obviously don't trickle down the 41 through the law enforcement channels to make sure the officers out there know what the real answer is to this mystery. Then you have police officers out there who don't know what an OLL is or that it is legal to own. Or they do know of the OLL and don't know the definition of a detachable magazine according to CA law.The fact that all of these OLL owners are taking enough interest in the law to make sure they are legal speaks volumes to me, and not that they are looking for ways to make something illegal appear legal or to do an end run around the law. If we really didn't care about the law or following it we'd just take our OLL's home and build them with every "evil" feature we thought that we wanted.

[Fishwrestler]

I guess I'll have to buy one of these damn black guns just to prove that I'm not against you all. Damn, that means I'll have to put my Extrema II on hold for awhile. SteveH.

Steve don't have to but one to prove anything lol i thing deep down inside you really want one and are just tryign to justify lol Just do it admit you need one to fill that inner voidGet you Extrema II I think this turned into a great thread and now I want to order upper lol some one needs to buy the powder charger i have listed and that dang scroll saw so i can raise more funds. Any one think I could get $5,000 an hour like that lady with the NY Govenor, Got to be some women politicioan out their willing to spend big bucks for a cmale companion. LOL Robert