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#1 RLS

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 04:07 PM

I know some of you guys know a lot about ARs. I would like to find a legal way to do it. I have talked to a few stores and one said he was pinning mags and that made them legal. I have talk to a few others and they said it was iffy at best. Had a different person say there is a stalk that is not a pistol grip and that would make them legal. I have not seen one of these stalks and have not heard one way or the other on it. Today I found a FAB 10 lower that claims to be legal. The bottom of the mag opening is not open. It has no mag release and says it come with a letter from the state saying it is legal. I also have seen a Bush Master I think that was a full rifle built in the same manor.I would love to be in a state that would allow a intact AR but would settle for one like the FAB 10.Any ideas or thought would help.

#2 Fjold

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 04:51 PM

I built and own the two rifles below neither are AR's because the Colt AR-15 is listed by name as an "Assault Weapon": Both of these rifles have the magazine bolted in place so they are no longer a semi-automatic rifle with a detachable magazine. The Fab-10 is absolutely legal in CA but read the opinions of the people who own them and more importantly their opinion of the customer service and people who own the company that makes them.There are numerous ways to build semi automatic rifles, the Monster man Grip, the bullet button magazine lock, the Prince 50 magazine lock, etc. you don't have to go with a particular brand, there are many variations possible. After I took this picture I converted the second rifle to no evil features (pistol grip, flash hider, forward grip, thumbhole stock, etc) so it can run with a detachable magazine. Instead of a pistol grip I use the Monster Man grip which is probably the stock that your friend was talking about. It doesn't allow a pistol like grip of the stock. Posted Image
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#3 fiveflat

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 05:13 PM

A pinned magazine isn't iffy - it's legal. I just went through all the rules as I am just about to pull the trigger on my lower receiver purchase within the next day or two.There is a company that makes a non-pistol grip / thumbhole stock. They are CArifles.com Their stocks are expensive though. If you purchase a pre-built AR - the magazine has to be fixed in place before an FFL will accept it. If you built it yourself, i.e. buy a stripped lower receiver. An FFL will accept it because it has no offensive equipment that will make it an AW in Kalifornia. (i.e. pistol grip + detachable magazine).Here's a link to my calguns.net thread:http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=54510
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#4 RLS

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 08:06 PM

I just read a bunch of the info on the U-15 stock. I am not sure I want to be a test case. The same with a pinned mag. If the DOJ was on our side I think all those things would pass but I do not believe DOJ would hesitate in making someone life miserable over anything like these things. I guess I will wait a little longer. I would like to see how you rifles come out.

#5 SLYoteBoy

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 10:12 PM

Just finished an OLL build tuesday (4-3). here are some pics Posted ImagePosted ImageStag lower with a bullet button on it. I want to get that skeleton stock , forgot who makes it , looks sweet , and a different pistol grip.shoots nicely , need to find some scope mounts and a scope for it , then itll be on.

#6 Camoghost

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 06:40 AM

Global Tactical is a great way to go, and they are CA legal for the moment. I would recommend a 3 pound trigger and a Fulton Armory 1 and 12 twist barrel..

#7 Fjold

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 06:56 AM

You can go to www.calguns.net and read the article on the front page titled "OLL FAQ" (Off List Lower Frequently Asked Questions). It should answer many of your questions.
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#8 pj1016

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 07:14 AM

You can go to www.calguns.net and read the article on the front page titled "OLL FAQ" (Off List Lower Frequently Asked Questions). It should answer many of your questions.

Major +1 for calguns if you want to know everything about AR OLL building...pj

#9 RLS

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 07:32 AM

I spent more than an hour there last night. It is a great site. Thanks for the help. I am going to have more questions before I pull the trigger.

#10 fiveflat

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 07:52 AM

SLYoteBoy;ACE makes the skeleton stock you are looking for. http://www.riflestocks.com/ar15.htmI'll take your A2 stock off your hands when you get an ACE! The purpose of my build will be to replicate the M16 I used in the Air Force (The best I can). I even want the triangular handguards for it.
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#11 fiveflat

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 11:54 AM

I just read a bunch of the info on the U-15 stock. I am not sure I want to be a test case. The same with a pinned mag. If the DOJ was on our side I think all those things would pass but I do not believe DOJ would hesitate in making someone life miserable over anything like these things. I guess I will wait a little longer. I would like to see how you rifles come out.

Yeah, the U-15 might be questionable - but I would definately describe that as a non-pistol grip or non-thumbhole stock.There's already been a 'test case' for the pinned magazine. It's 24 pages and ends kind of abruptly, but basically he got all charges dropped and he even got his rifle returned to him! http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=40675
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#12 Stiff Neck

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 12:11 PM

Last I heard, it was pretty difficult to get local FFL's to sell you an OLL. Which stores are now selling them and which manufacturers are nw shipping them to CA? That was the other problem.

#13 capitol

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 01:06 PM

My local FFL (Irvington Arms) sells them and imports them from FFL's out of state (DD's Ranch & Cold War Shooters). As for the mfg, as long as the brand/name is "off list" we dont need or care if the mfg will ship to kali.If the CADOJ was waiting for a test case it would already have had one. Go to almost any range in kali on any given weekend and pick your test case. For some reason it hasn't happened in over a year. There have been two seperate people arrested (that im aware of) for an OLL kali legal rifle. One in San Jose and one in Orange County. Both cases were dropped.
Bullets are pretty worthless. All they do is hang around waiting to get loaded.

#14 Cranky Farmer

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 01:28 PM

Have you guys seen the Monster Man Grip for the A2 stocks?http://www.monstermangrip.comAttached File  MMG2.jpg   28.36KB   28 downloadsIf you're worried about the AR build look at the Kel-Tec.

#15 Stiff Neck

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 01:29 PM

As for the mfg, as long as the brand/name is "off list" we dont need or care if the mfg will ship to kali.

I thought that was the big holdup a few months ago. I thought mfg's and wholesalers stopped shipping them to CA due to the possible legal issues. Anybody have the name/number of FFL's that for sure will sell OLLs? Preferably in the Sac area. What brands are currently available? From what I've read Stag is one of the best. Comments?

#16 fiveflat

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 01:29 PM

Last I heard, it was pretty difficult to get local FFL's to sell you an OLL. Which stores are now selling them and which manufacturers are nw shipping them to CA? That was the other problem.

"THE GUN ROOM" in Elk Grove has the Bushmaster carbine15 on their shelves, but they want almost $1100.00 for it !!!
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#17 RLS

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 02:00 PM

I stopped today at San Jose Gun Exchange. They had both the Monster Man Grip and the U-15. I liked the U-15 better. It sounds like the pinned mags would be OK but how much would it cost to keep you out of jail if you were the test case. I know a FFL dealer that thought he had all his ducks in a row. One day he was selling 5 fire arms a week the next he was getting bailed out of jail. At first he talked tough about getting every thing back and teaching them a lesson. By the end he had paid about $30,000 to an attorney and was hoping not to go to jail. It is to bad that you have to look over your shoulder when you are exercising a basic right.

#18 Fjold

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 02:30 PM

I thought that was the big holdup a few months ago. I thought mfg's and wholesalers stopped shipping them to CA due to the possible legal issues. Anybody have the name/number of FFL's that for sure will sell OLLs? Preferably in the Sac area. What brands are currently available? From what I've read Stag is one of the best. Comments?

The only one's that refused to ship to CA were Fulton and a couple of others that caved in when the DOJ sent out letters saying that 'although the receivers were technically legal some DA's in CA might try to prosecute them for importing AW's'. Fulton pulled a major chicken on that and stabbed at least one FFL dealer in the back but just about every other manufacturer ignored it. As a result, a lot of manufacturers made a ton of money selling the 30,000 - 50,000 lowers that have come into the state in the last 1.5 years and Fulton's name is mud with knowledgable CA shooters.
Frank
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#19 capitol

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 05:36 PM

Anybody have the name/number of FFL's that for sure will sell OLLs? Preferably in the Sac area. What brands are currently available? From what I've read Stag is one of the best. Comments?

Ben, I cant help you out with an FLL, but here is a few off list lower names for you to shop for.MegaStag ArmsDouble StarGunSmokePOFFulton ArmoryCMMG You should find out what your FLL generally sells and just buy it that way. If you have a paticular lower shipped to your dealer he may charge you much more versus buying what he already sells.btw... dont buy Vulcan
Bullets are pretty worthless. All they do is hang around waiting to get loaded.

#20 hawk eye

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 04:44 PM

i don't know about the ability to change out the mag by swapping the pin( rumor or not) couldn't u just buy a loser reciever pre-ban, and then an upper and put them together? or are there problems with that? im just wondering, and does any one one the forum own A DPMS? I've heard good things about the 308 AP4, what'd y'll think?

#21 fiveflat

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 04:56 PM

I *think* the DPMS is a LISTED lower receiver, so you couldn't even transfer it into CA anyway.You CAN buy a stripped lower receiver with an OPEN magwell. Being that it is stripped, it doesn't have any of California's "offending" features (pistol grip, mainly).If you wanted to blatently disobey the law you could then take the receiver home and build an AR-15 with detachable magazine. It is your responsibility to obey the law and place a prince 50 lock on your 10 round magazine.
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#22 Fjold

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 05:03 PM

i don't know about the ability to change out the mag by swapping the pin( rumor or not) couldn't u just buy a loser reciever pre-ban, and then an upper and put them together? or are there problems with that? im just wondering, and does any one one the forum own A DPMS? I've heard good things about the 308 AP4, what'd y'll think?

"Pre-ban" applies only to the federal AW law that was sunsetted a couple of years ago. California has different laws that apply, on the DOJ website there is a list of rifle that are not legal to import, buy or sell in the state except for LE personnel and the military. There is also a list of what features that you are not allowed to have on semi-automatic, detachable magazine, centerfire rifles. Check out the OLL FAQ on calguns.net or read the entire section of CA law on assault weapons. DPMS makes very good products but "DPMS Panther (All)" is listed by the DOJ as an assault weapon so you cannot buy a complete rifle or lower receiver made by DPMS in the state. Many people buy DPMS upper receiver assemblies and put them on lower receivers that are not listed as Assault Weapons by the state.
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#23 fiveflat

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 09:04 AM

Damn, my friend won't transfer a lower (I understand why too - he doesn't have a store front and he doesn't want the hassle from DOJ) the only ones I find that are willing to do the transfer want $50 + DROS to do it and they are way out of my way (1.5hour+ drive). I think I'll give up on my AR dream.
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#24 Fjold

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 06:38 PM

Damn, my friend won't transfer a lower (I understand why too - he doesn't have a store front and he doesn't want the hassle from DOJ) the only ones I find that are willing to do the transfer want $50 + DROS to do it and they are way out of my way (1.5hour+ drive). I think I'll give up on my AR dream.

Go to www.DDsranch.com or www.coldwarshooters.net They are out of state dealers that have a list of in state dealers that will transfer guns for them. You might find an FFL close to you that you don't even know about yet.
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#25 SLYoteBoy

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 07:41 PM

Is harold: norcal or socal or inbetween.

#26 fiveflat

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 08:12 PM

Herald is Norcal. It's just 20 minutes south of Sacramento. A buddy at work mentioned that there's a gun show at Cal Expo in about 2 months. I'll wait and see what's there.
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#27 SLYoteBoy

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 08:14 PM

I was going to say , thers a place in atascadero that will transfer , but thats like 4 plus hours for you. so scratch that.




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