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bullet set back in semi auto handguns


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#1 ehd

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 06:05 PM

hi all. i have been shooting some 90 grain hps in my 357 sig . low end of the powder spectrum. i resize the cases to bump the shoulder back .002. When loading ,i set the COL to specs ,then apply as much crimp as i can,without collapsing the case. After chambering the round a few times the bullet sets back about .40 .is there any adjustment on the die for neck tension? should I not use the case expander before seating bullets? ,or just move up to the 125 grain that has more( about twice) surface area for neck tension. Thanks for helping the novice!

#2 Bisley

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 07:50 PM

Without saying "Why do you load/unload it so many times" or "Just one more reason to own wheel guns" (tell em Braz :lol: ), this will solve all your problems, no matter what bullet. We use it on the .30-30. Extremely easy to set up and use, and 100% effective :good:

Lee Bottle Neck Pistol Factory Crimp Die - Lee Precision

#3 Braz

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:17 PM

Yep, with wheel guns that just isn't a problem. However, even with teh revolver, you hve to be careful that the bullet doesn't come out a bit from recoil, or it will bind up the cylinder.
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#4 ehd

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 05:36 AM

i think it may be too short a bullet as i tried some 125 gr.and didnt measure a problem.

#5 tawnoper

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:57 AM

i'm not really following EHD... when you say "sets back .40 (I'm sure you meant .04") do you mean the overall gets shorter or longer?
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#6 ehd

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:25 AM

The overall gets shorter. the brass stays same length, the bullet seats itself further in the case. Never really cared,as I rack one in and usually shoot it. But reading several articles,that if a bullet seats itself too deep in the case it can cause KB. So i tested a few of my rounds by racking one in and ejecting it and measure overall length. it set the bullet back about .008 per cycle. 5 cycles and I was at .40

#7 tawnoper

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 07:42 AM

That's what I thought, but wasn't sure. What might be happening is you are not seating the bullet deep enough and they are contacting the rifling. Most of the time when this happens your gun will not go to battery...but sometimes it will. Different bullet shapes require different seating depths. A flat nosed bullet like a hollow point cannot be loaded like a round nosed hard ball.

The easiest way for me to tell is to strip down your gun then when seating "whatever" bullet I'll drop the loaded case into the chamber till it drops in without interference. You can tell. Seat the bullet a little deeper like .010" at a time. Try a few and you'll definitely know when there is not interference. Then I'll measure and write it down for next time.

I wouldn't crimp that round.
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#8 ehd

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:34 AM

interesting that i had a box of speer gold dot 125 grains and measured it for fun. The shoulder is pushed back about .038 from my fire formed brass. almost seems scary to shoot the stuff. I guess they want to make sure its not too long to go out of battery.

#9 tawnoper

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:02 PM

yep..and another reason you don't want to crimp that round.
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#10 Bisley

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:21 PM

The Lee Factory Crimp Die has 0% effect on the shoulder (or case at all for that matter). It simply encloses the case mouth and creates a "ring" around the top of the case mouth to hold the bullet, not like a taper or roll crimp at all.

#11 ehd

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:28 PM

I loaded 100 rounds tonight . What i did different tonight was not expanding the case mouth after sizing. Neck tension measured .007(case is .007 smaller id than the od of the bullet) , and with the small boatail shape to the back of the bullet there was no seating issues. Cycled a round a bunch of times and no set back problems.

I have seen the lee die and i think i have shot some stuff that has had that type of crimp on it.

#12 Bisley

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:36 PM

Here is an idea of how it crimps and what it looks like afterward. As you can see, the neck nor case get messed with, just the mouth. Works flawlessly and with excellent results on the .30-30, also a bottleneck case.
Posted Image
Posted Image

#13 ehd

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:54 PM

thats a very neat die. I have the lee collet for the 223 . Once i got it fine tuned it works great. sure saves the cases from stretching.The only modification i did was take a yard sale torque wrench and modify it to make a handle on my press to make all the neck tension the same. they make a actual rcbs tool for it ,by i was too cheap to buy it.

#14 Bisley

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:13 PM

You're not cheap, just a master at improvising :lol:
I bought the LFCD for my dad who is not known for his finesse at reloading :rolleyes: . Best thing I ever did for the .30-30. And best of all, your bullet does not need a crimp groove or cannelure on it to use this die. I still prefer roll crimps on my straight walled wheel gun cases, taper crimps on my straight walled autos, and if we needed a crimp on the bottlenecked .223 cases (ours is a bolt, so we don't) I would buy the LFCD in a half a heart beat. I do not own a bottleneck pistol round, but would not hesitate to use it if I had one or had issues. It sets up as simply as it works too. If you have it worked out now then no need obviously to get it, but if you notice it slipping again do it and forget about any more worries. I would do this long before I changed bullets that worked or that I liked for sure. Hope you get it worked out either way.

#15 tawnoper

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:06 AM

Remember, there is no magic involved here, just basic mechanics. ANY crimp cause the mouth of the case to slightly crimp inward towards the bullet. The .357 Sig is designed to headspace off the mouth. It just so happens to have a shoulder as well that might contact before the mouth does. If the mouth touch's first and has a crimp it might cause a problem.
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#16 ehd

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:32 AM

Attached File  photo.JPG   15.59KB   0 downloads

i think it headspaces off the shoulder. By my measurements in the glock barrel ,the case mouth shoulder is .040 further than the max case length. i double checked this with a piece of brass that was long (out of spec) ,and still couldnt contact the case mouth shoulder. here is a go/no gauge, and note that the gauge doesnt make reference to the mouth. correct me if i am wrong?

#17 tawnoper

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:34 AM

i think it headspaces off the shoulder.


Yep...I'm the one who originally told you that.

It does headspace off the shoulder...eventually. But it was designed to headspace off the mouth. If you are a reloader who understands how to set up their dies properly using a headspace gauge, the mouth is irrelevant and you could even trim them a bit short and crimp them if you'd like. Lee actually makes a .357 Sig crimp die for them as Bisley pointed out. It's usually not a good idea to crimp a straight walled case that headspace off the mouth (45 acp, 9mm etc). You can crimp them, and Lee makes crimp dies for them, but too much crimp can cause a problem vs crimping a round that doesn't utilize that surface for headspace.

When a company is mass producing loads to sell to the public they have no idea to where these particular guns are headspaced to the shoulder at...so they usually set them back aways (as you found out measuring your factory loads) so they will headspace off the mouth.

Here is a good article on the .357 Sig.
http://www.realguns....chives/001.htm
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#18 ehd

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:00 AM

Thank you folks for taking the time to help be better understand what the story is with this cartridge. There is more poetry than truth printed about this cartridge in the reloading books. Sierra, hornady and speer all have it wrong on headspace

#19 tawnoper

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:47 PM

Sierra, hornady and speer all have it wrong on headspace


You know, it's funny about this cartridge, they don't necessarily have it wrong. For people who shoot factory loads only - it headspaces off the mouth. For reloaders though, it can headspace off either.
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#20 Bisley

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:37 PM

If the mouth touch's first and has a crimp it might cause a problem.


That is the beauty of the design of this die, it crimps in four seperate sections clearly seperated by a segment of mouth that is not cromped (ie. normal diameter and still capable of being headspaced fom). Lee really did their homework with this one.

#21 StoneTower

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 02:54 PM

Setback can have several causes. The feed angle of a semi auto (or full auto), recoil, bullet seated too long for the chamber to name a few. I have a 22-250 upper for an AR-10 (very rare Armalite limited production) and if you shoot factory loads it pushes the bullet in deeply. 22-250 rounds were never meant for a semi-auto so the factory does not crimp them as they do 308 and 223. If you have enough neck tension, you do not need to crimp. Some people sand the expander ball in their die down a 2-3 thousands. Other people like me who have Redding dies order an undersized expander ball.

Many brands of 45 ACP dies come with a crimp die. If you use the correct crimp die for a semi-auto, it will only help and not hurt.




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