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Together Again?


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#1 sxshooter

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 04:00 PM

This is the new gun I stumbled on, another NID .410, 28" Field grade, Ejector, apparently right under Walt's nose in NC.
I bought the first one from a dealer near Seattle a few years ago. I saw it for sale on the net at least 5 years prior to going into that store and started a rambling discussion with the owner that led to him telling me that he still had it but hadn't advertised it in a long time. I bought it on the spot.
I've been using that first NID as a quail gun, since the full/mod factory chokes had been altered to mod/cyl. Still, I took a rooster with the first shell I fired in it at a wally park hunt club.
When I stumbled on this new one, I was not looking for another, just killing brain cells on the net. I picked it up from my dealer yesterday and just now pulled it out to give it a good look.
The new gun turns out to be s/n 457298, just 3 number away from my first one, 457295! They may have been in the factory together at one time in 1929. Maybe even on the same bench together during machining. Walt Snyder, the author of the definitive history book on Ithaca, said these guns shipped about 3 years apart. I've asked if they could have been made next to each other and one shipped immediately and the other 3 years later due to the low demand for such a gun.

457295 has a slightly shorter LOP at 13 3/4", while 457298 is 14" even.
457295 weighs in at 6lbs 2 oz, while 457298 rolls on the scale at 6lbs 10 oz.
Per Walt's book, approximately 934 .410 NID guns were made between 1926 and 1948, 790 were field grade. It's unknown how many were 28" or were equipped with ejectors. I've only seen 2 28" NID .410's. I now own both. Every other .410 NID I've seen had 26" bbls

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As you can see, there is a difference in the forend wood shape and length. 457295 is narrower and longer.

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It's not about how many, it's about how.
Life is too short to hunt with an ugly dog or gun

Maintain a balance of nature, use a beautiful gun when shooting a beautiful bird

#2 rustygun

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 04:50 PM

Another great find! What are the odds of the # being so close. Also wonder if they were shipped to seperat states on the first shipment?

#3 sxshooter

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 06:53 PM

I've asked Walt Snyder if he could provide factory records or a letter. We'll see what he comes up with.
It's not about how many, it's about how.
Life is too short to hunt with an ugly dog or gun

Maintain a balance of nature, use a beautiful gun when shooting a beautiful bird

#4 clampdaddy

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 08:32 PM

Hey SxS, with that much variance in the length of the fore end wood between two guns that are so closely numbered, have you noticed as much variance in the stock dimensions between different NID guns? One of mine appears to have the original stock but it has a lot more drop at the heel than most of the other NID's I've seen pictures of.
My guns are mine, they aren't for sale, and I only give guns to people that I really like. So I guess the government is **** out of luck.

#5 sxshooter

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 06:21 AM

Clamp,
Stock dimensions changed quite a bit over the run of NIDs. In the early guns, about 3" of drop at the heel was common. Around the war, dimensions of all the American gun companies had come up. Shooting styles were changing with the competition crowd and that influence gun features. Trap and skeet guns all had higher dimensions even in the earlier part of the 20th century and some even before that. Pigeon ring guns were high dimension as well. English guns at the end of the 19th century were almost all of high dimensions common today. Some Parker field guns were as much as 3 1/2" of drop at the heel. A.H. Fox guns in the early 30's were bought out by Savage. When Savage pulled A.H. Fox gun production out of Philly and moved it to Chicopee Falls, they made some changes that continued thru to the end of production. One of the changes was raising the comb dimensions.

So, what you'll find is pre-war American field guns will mostly be around 3" DAH or more.

Graded guns tended to be custom ordered and could be had with any dimensions. Often higher graded guns from the Depression era were custom ordered by the very affluent who shot clay sports and they followed the competition trend of higher dimensions. What I've found is most of the first two or three grades of American guns from L.C. Smith, A.H. Fox, Parker, and Ithaca will have low dimensions common in field guns, while the higher grades I run across, have higher dimensions as they were more likely ordered by people that shot clay sports or live pigeon shoots.

American "Pigeon guns" from the late 19th and early 20th century, up to the 2nd war, are highly sought after by collectors and some eastern live pigeon shooters. Some of these shoots still go on, but are harassed by PETA, HSUS, and the like, and even outlawed in many states. They are usually held by private gun clubs like the Philadelphia Gun Club, one of the oldest clubs around and one that is very private and populated by some very affluent folks. This is where the old, high grade pigeon guns come out for display and shooting among the rich showing off. This is where the side betting can get pretty serious. I have heard numbers for purses that would buy houses. There have been some 'common folk' pigeon shoots here in CA and I've been invited to a few. They are kept pretty quiet and virtually no spectators. Small time wagering in the hundreds is pretty common.
It's not about how many, it's about how.
Life is too short to hunt with an ugly dog or gun

Maintain a balance of nature, use a beautiful gun when shooting a beautiful bird

#6 ShooterJohn

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 07:24 AM

I used to shoot at the live pigeon shoots held outside of Reno at the old Mustang Ranch. But that was back in the very early 80's and we weren't harassed by PETA. Allot of money sure changed hands at those old shoots. So for that reason alone you took that second shot no matter how well you hit it with the first shot. There is no more sinking feeling than to see that bird get up and walk out of the circle.

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#7 Kephers

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:04 PM

Some beautiful shotguns for sure
OORAH! SEMPER FI!
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