27 replies to this topic

[lif2fsh]

Anyone have any info.experience on there hunting bullets?

[donkey12]

Look up best of the west. Thats all they use.

[Desert Fox]

Anyone have any info.experience on there hunting bullets?

Shot this Texas whitetail with my 6.5-284 loaded with 140 grain Berger Hunting VLD at a distance of 603 yards.



Here's the remain of the 140 grain Berger Hunting VLD. Total core separation. The jacket was recovered lodge under the skin on the ribcage area. Never found the core.



Excerpt of the story from another forum. Actually it was a heated discussion about the ethics of Long range hunting.


Maybe my last posting of a 603 yards kill must have spawn some raw emotion here regarding this very touchy subject. Sorry about that . Let me begin by saying that before you pass your judgement on some of us who practice the craft, why not have an open mind and try to at least understand how it's being done.

I can't consider myself a long range hunter yet by any means. I am however is a practitioner of the craft. I had only 3 - 600 + yards kill in my belt. All three were one shot one kill. I missed a total of two... all clean misses. One a 645 yards and another a 700 + yards. As you can see there's only a few animals I've killed at long range. That's because, I don't do these often. The condition have to be close to perfect before I pull a trigger on an animal a long ways away. I spend quite a fair amount of money and time honing my skill. I owe it to the animal I hunted... and that includes varmint.

Here's how I pulled that 603 yards shot, just to give you an insight as to how's it's done.

The ballistic data of the 140 grain Berger Hunting VLD I used on this hunt, was already pre-loaded in my Dell Axim Pocket PC loaded with Exbal Ballistic Program, when I left California. This was the result of months and months of extensive load development and testing and fine tuning. I'd practice shooting often with my rifle to a maximum distance of 600 yards, about the limit of our club shooting range, and I had complete confidence that the rifle and bullet were up to task.

It was late in the afternoon, the sun was just above the horizon and the temperature was dropping like a rock. I kept checking and crosschecking the data coming out of my Kestrel so that I can update the data on the Dell. For 30 minutes, I was watching the doe grazing at the edge of a food plot 300 yards away. I have 3 doe tag. Twice, I talked myself out in shooting the doe. Something inside me kept saying, just wait a few more minutes. Then out of nowhere, the small buck appeared. I grabbed my Swaro Laser range finder and ranged the distance. Three quick reading confirmed that the buck was 308 yards away. Only one problem however,,, there's a group of cows directly behind the buck. So I waited. In the meantime, I took one more reading with my Kestrel and it showed that the temperature had dropped a few more degrees, down from 55 to 44 degrees, the barometric pressure dropped a notch also, from 29.15 to 28.05 inches. The humidity remains constant however at 27%. I hurried up and updated all the numbers on the Dell and ranged the buck again since it started to moved towards the middle of the field, following the doe. The swaro reads 580 yards now and the buck was not stopping. Finally at about 600 yards, both the doe and the buck stop for a bite. It's now or never! I made three quick successive readings with the Swaro and the average distance I was getting was 603 yards. I grabbed my Dell, punched in the number and push re-calculate. The result was instantaneous. The elevation calls for a 10.75 MOA correction from my 110 yards zero, Wind was coming from northeasterly direction at a steady 3 mph from 4 oclock. This was about 3/4 MOA of correction according to Exbal which is about 5" at that distance. I know just from my observation during some of my shooting practice that the 140 Berger will have a spin drift of about 4.5" at 600 yards, which will almost canceled out the wind of the moment. I spun the Vortex turret counter clockwise and stopped right at 11 MOA mark. I clicked back once and hold the crosshair steady at the center of the deer's body, just slightly behind the shoulder and applied a steady rearward pressure on the trigger. I was oblivious of the rifle going off. All I saw was the deer flipping on it's side. It was probably dead before it hit the ground.

[Bisley]

I have to say with all respect, I appreciate the sport of long range shooting, but long range hunting is an oxymoron. And while it can be done successfully, the lag time between shot and hit is a risk that I am not willing to take. Paper doesn't move around or run off wounded. If you need glass to make out what it even is you are shooting at, you are no longer hunting, you are sniping. I wish it would be referred to that way in the books, magazines, and even places like this. And I don't agree with "sniping", but I am not the kind to think it should be outlawed because I don't find it ethical myself, I just wish it would not be called by the same name (hunting).

[HOG]

Bisley, are you OK with Long range ground squirrel shooting?

[KNOCKED UP]

Don't apoligise,
Sounds to me like you took the risk out
of shooting the animals before you pulled the triger.
If you were one of these guys that have never made long shots
at paper, that could be a different story.
It is obvious that you know what you are doing.
Good on you.
Tom

[Frank]

Unlike many, I personally am not a fan of Berger bullets. Hey, someone has to be right?

Reason I say this is, 1). Fox's deer is a perfect example of Bergers (lack of) performance. And at 600 yards core seperation should NEVER have happened, and has never happened on numerous deer our group(s) have slain with Nosler... of various designs, distances & high velocity. 2). In our admittedly limited testing of Berger, they were not as accurate as Nosler either 3). Bergers are considerably more expensive. Add all this up, and the bottom line is, they are not worth it.

Fox... The only question I have, do all your scope adjustments take "elevation" into consideration? I am sure it has to, but I have to ask since I did not see anything mentioning it in your post.

Specifically, at what elevation was your rifle and load sighted in at, verses the elevation the shot was taken? Most of us know elevation is one of the major ingredients that will determine bullet drop, or lack of, is also why I ask.

[dabob]

Desert Fox, you wrote " The jacket was recovered lodge under the skin on the ribcage area". Was the jacket on the opposite side of the deer from where the bullet entered?

I used a Rem 700, 7mm mag for almost 30 years for deer hunting . I reloaded Sierra 140 BT and 160 gr BT bullets and almost all of the bullets I did recover looked just like your picture of the Berger bullet and most of the time the jacket was just under the skin on the opposite side of the deer.

I would rather shoot deer with a bullet that may come apart than use bullets on deer that don't expand enough when they hit a deer.

[Frank]

I reloaded Sierra 140 BT and 160 gr BT bullets and almost all of the bullets I did recover looked just like your picture of the Berger bullet and most of the time the jacket was just under the skin on the opposite side of the deer.

Sorry dabob, but that is exactly why I won't use Sierra's either. I've seen 308 cal, 180 gr Sierra's recovered from bull elk with absolutely zero expansion. More than once! They are inconsistent at best, for game IMO! They are designed more for accuracy than game performance.

We have recovered a lot of bullets on deer over the decades. This includes digging out bullets on the far side of an animal's hide. Virtually every Nosler bullet (b.t.'s, partition etc) we recovered on deer had exceptional expansion AND weight retention. I am also talking about shooting deer up close and personal, & one out to over 500 yards, a one shot kill, with at least 2 others around the 400 yard mark, both one shot kills. Btw, the 500 yard shot was a long time ago, & I would not attempt today.

But hey, if one likes a certain brand of bullet manufacturer for anything they hunt, then I of course LOVE it.

[Frank]

Ok, found one, and hope this turns out... 2 pics of same 308 dia, 165gr Nosler bal tip from 300 win mag dug out from far side of an Idaho mule deer buck I shot at approx 125 yards... approx 20 yrs ago. Ugh, I am too old. I do not recall the weight of expanded bullet, but do remember it was a very high percentage of entire weight of bullet.

Attached Files

•  2nd bullet pic.jpg   5.72K   1 downloads
•  bullet pic.jpg   6.18K   2 downloads

[Frank]

Here's the deer...

Attached Files

•  1994 buck.jpg   62.44K   2 downloads

[Bisley]

Bisley, are you OK with Long range ground squirrel shooting?

When you consider that a .22cal bullet is roughly 1/8 the width of a squirrel, that would be the same as using a 3-4" bullet on a 2-3' wide elk. A hit anywhere is pretty much a done deal. Understand what I'm saying. And while squirrels are varmints, I don't consider it to be the same style/class as medium or large game hunting. While they may be smart, they are nowhere near as smart as the larger game. I do not mean this to sound rude, unkind, or harsh, or that you can't hunt, but a picture of a deer shot at 600 yards shows me that you are undoubtedly a good great marksman, but it does not by any means make you are a good hunter. No game was stealthily stalked. It's not right up on you for the adrenaline to be dealt with. No calls were used correctly to fool it into thinking you were an animal you aren't. And wind, noise, and smell had absolutely no play involved with a long snipe like that. That is why I say it says nothing about hunting skills and only about shooting skills. Again, not trying to be disrespectful to anyone, just saying it should be called what it is, sniping, not hunting. 600 yards is darn near a half mile. A three ring circus could get within a half mile of deer with out having it run off. Sorry, that's just how I see it.

[tawnoper]

And wind, noise, and smell had absolutely no play involved with a long snipe like that.

Wind did...

[Desert Fox]

Desert Fox, you wrote " The jacket was recovered lodge under the skin on the ribcage area". Was the jacket on the opposite side of the deer from where the bullet entered?

Yes, the jacket was on the opposite side. The deer was slightly quartering when i took the shot. The bullet entered slightly behind the shoulder, missing hitting the ribs. The bullet has an estimated 1,300 ft/lb. of energy when it hit the deer and exploded like a bomb inside. The core and jacket split. I noticed the bulged on the skin just under the rib cage so I cut it open with my knife before gutting the deer. To my surprised, the core was missing. It was really getting dark so we hanged the deer on an old windmill and gutted it out. I planned on looking for the core in the gut pile by the morning but the coyote or pig got there first and helped themselves.

I have a friend who's use Berger VLD exclusively and kill more animal with it, ranging from coyote to elk, told me not to use the hunting VLD because it has thinner jacket than the target kind. He use Berger for his 7MM Remington Mag and 257 Bee with great success.

The bullet performance is just what to expect from any cup and core swaged type bullet... no surprised there. Berger bullet is designed for long range hunting! and not for close quarter shot. As long as you understand the bullet limitation, don't hesitate to use it on game.

[Frank]

Berger bullet is designed for long range hunting! and not for close quarter shot.

A single dimensional bullet then... at best! Again, the key words are 600 yard on a SMALL animal, where velocity and energy is one level above non existent. There literally should have been little to no expansion at all, much less a violent one that literally came un-glued at the seams with it's core seperation... Unlike many other, more reliable brand of bullets that are available for med to large size game.

Sorry, the Berger may indeed be a great long range target or varmint/predator round, but I personally want something a whole lot more reliable on medium to large size animals. They deserve that respect IMO!

Don't mean to drag this on, but is at least a semi important issue... to me anyhow!

[Desert Fox]

Fox... The only question I have, do all your scope adjustments take "elevation" into consideration? I am sure it has to, but I have to ask since I did not see anything mentioning it in your post.

Frank,

The ability to change elevation setting with just a turn of a turret is a must in long range shooting. That's the reason why I prefer Tactical Scopes on all my hunting rig. I don't carry ballistic chart affixed to my rifle butt anymore like I use to. Instead, I carry a pocket PC loaded with ballistic program. I like the fact that I can tweak the data on the run, to compensate for any changes in the environmental condition encountered during the hunt. I found out that it's more precise when compared with a static system like BDC Turret or ballistic etched reticle.

Specifically, at what elevation was your rifle and load sighted in at, verses the elevation the shot was taken? Most of us know elevation is one of the major ingredients that will determine bullet drop, or lack of, is also why I ask.

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I zero'd my rifle at 110 yards. I load all the data of the cartridge into my pocket PC and the ballistic program will do all the calculating for me. If you read my first post, that is exactly what I was doing before I took the shot.

[Frank]

Ok, very interesting and thank you for the explanation... I did see you mention loading the data, and again, "assumed" it considered the original sight in elevation vs the elevation at the time of the shot, but just wasn't positive, or better yet, know it works is what I guess I'm trying to say?

Anyway, Thanks again, and way to make a hxxl of a shot indeed

[Desert Fox]

Let's define hunting for a moment. According to Mr Webster, Hunting define as the practice of pursuing games especially for the purposes of sport or food. Now my method of pursuit differ than yours! But ultimately, we all seek the same outcome in that, we want to dispatch the game as quickly and humanely as possible.

There's two competing thoughts at play here. Just go the range when hunting season is about to begin and just observe hunter there zeroing their rifle. People bring their trusted Remchester, some of them never saw cleaning rod since who knows when, and fires a couple of factory round downrange, put them back on the padded case and call it good enough. I look at their target and just shook my head in disbelief. These are the same people by the way, who will be the first to call your ethics into question. Do I have the right to call their own ethics into question? NO!

Contrast that to me where I shoot all year long every chance I got, whether on competition or going to range testing load or just plain plinking. My rigs were built with the outmost care and attention to detail by a highly regarded smith and are capable of quarter minute group as far as you care to shoot. You see how careful and methodical I am when crafting loads for my rifle too. I also studied and understand ballistic both internal and external. I carry instrument in the field to aid me in precisely placing my shot where I wanted it to go. In spite all these, Do I miss... of course I do. Everybody does. But don't castigate or impose your ethics on those practitioner of long range hunting, especially if you have no foggiest idea of how it's done.

[Bisley]

All the skill in the word will not prevent that long delay in between firing a round and it hitting. I have yet to see many animals stand still for very long at all, as they are constantly moving something. And I don't care how fast the bullets fly, it does take a considerable time to reach that far, period, sorry. If you don't believe/think it does, then this a mute point and you are not as logical as I thought. But the reality is it does, and it is not a chance this ole boy was taught should be taken. It is not for lack of confidence in your equipment or ability, it is just one too many factors outside your realm at play to take them consistently, cleanly. But I do realize that I tend to have more respect for what I shoot at than most. Not that it is ant better or worse, just what it is.

[Frank]

But don't castigate or impose your ethics on those practitioner of long range hunting, especially if you have no foggiest idea of how it's done

Not sure where you are going with all this, however, "how" long range shooting for hunting is performed matters little. Dispatching an animal humanely or ethically does, and when the distances go up, the odds go down... Significantlly! No matter "how" good someone is.

Also, I recall 3 deer I shot from 4-500+ yards that were all one shot, instant kills. NO misses! While this may not be "Long Range" per se, it is however, at or beyond the "norm" or average of big game shooting. And while this semi-consistent "shooting" may be considered well done by some, I really HATE attempting those long of shots, due to the very reasons I mentioned in the above paragraph. In fact, on the 500+ yard shot, I would never attempt again; As it is NOT sporting, humane or ethical, no matter "how" one slices it, or good of a shot they are.

I also totally understand how some, if not many, folks have almost no clue at what they are doing or understanding of their firarms, ballistics or anything else related to shooting or the game hunted. However, a lot of this is not deliberate... a BIG difference!

I guess we can justify anything... but shouldn't!

[Desert Fox]

And I don't care how fast the bullets fly, it does take a considerable time to reach that far, period, sorry

Any idea how long it took for the 140 grain at 2900 fps to traverse 600 yards?

Any idea how fast a blink of an eye is?

[Bisley]

Any idea how long it took for the 140 grain at 2900 fps to traverse 600 yards?

Any idea how fast a blink of an eye is?

Yes, I know exactly how long it takes o both accounts, I have shot that distance before with the 06 (same speed) just to see how long it takes. And if you think it is quick enough that there is little to no chance of game to move, you are surely less educated than I anticipated. They are fast enough to move at the sound of a loud bow at 25 yards, 600 yards even with a rifle bullet is no quicker. But I regress, this is the same problem I have with most long range shooters, what your equipment will do on (stationary) paper and what the real, living, moving world does is two entirely different things. And I am just sorry (for you, but more for the game) that you can not grasp that concept. I will finish now. I have learned over they years that it will change nothing. When it comes to the "real" world, you either get it or you don't.

[Bisley]

Just got out of the shower with a GREAT idea. Next time you're out, why don't you build an open frame that is much wider than your full size deer target. Now, staple ONLY the top left corner and top right corner and let the bottom dangle in the wind. Now shoot at it and tell me how it looks. That's as real world as you can get. Sure the wind may blow it around, but animals move just as you pull the trigger too, right? Hell, I'll even let you try it at 300 yards!!! Then come talk to me about how fast it is and how easy they are to hit . Not fair? I say it is. I have never seen any game stapled to a frame so it can't move . Kind of puts it in a little different perspective, don't it?

[Desert Fox]

And if you think it is quick enough that there is little to no chance of game to move, you are surely less educated than I anticipated. They are fast enough to move at the sound of a loud bow at 25 yards, 600 yards even with a rifle bullet is no quicker. But I regress, this is the same problem I have with most long range shooters, what your equipme...

Bis,

Can we have a discussion without resorting to name calling.

Sounds travel on air at approximately 1,126 ft/second, whereas my bullet moves at 2,975 ft/second. At 600 yards, the 140 Berger is still traveling at 2,000 ft/sec. And you're calling me less educated. Do the math for christ sake. That deer was dead by the time the sound got there.

[ShooterJohn]

Come on guys lets agree to disagree okay. No harm no foul.

[Desert Fox]

Just got out of the shower with a GREAT idea. Next time you're out, why don't you build an open frame that is much wider than your full size deer target. Now, staple ONLY the top left corner and top right corner and let the bottom dangle in the wind.

Not sure what's this gonna accomplish!!!

An animal that is relax and undisturbed is easier to hit than the one that is alert and on guard. The longer the distance, the better your odd because deer will more than likely hang around long enough for you to be able to send another round downrange. I've seen this happened all the time.
I don't count on that second shot however. I much prefer one shot one kill. My rigs are capable of doing that, and I have complete confidence of my ability to be able to do that also.

Just to give you an example, I will show you what a well put together hunting rig is capable of doing. You all remember my 338 Lapua Ackley. Believe it or not, I hunt with that beast, sometimes carrying all 16 lbs. of it up a hill.



Just to give you a perspective. This is the result of my last 1000 yards competition using this rifle. Look at the score on the right side of the target. As you can see, the first 3 shot was inside the X ring of the official 1000 yards NRA target. That's 10 inches in diameter by the way. The 5 shot group measured 13.75". I believe deer vitals are within 12" circle. The 300 grain SMK remaining energy at that distance were about 2,200 ft/lb. If you look at my over all score, I was able to place 13 out of 25 shot, about 52%, inside the 10" circle.

[Desert Fox]

Come on guys lets agree to disagree okay. No harm no foul.

Sorry John I'm done with it. Cheer guys and sorry lif2fsh for the thread hijack

[Bisley]

Bis,

Can we have a discussion without resorting to name calling?

Apparently I missed something??? I specifically never use any names, ever, unless it is where i referred to you as a long range shooter or quite a marksman??? I do question knowledge though, and if that is offensive, I do not know what to tell you??? Thought that is part of what places like this are for??? My bad, I guess???