16 replies to this topic

[mtn dog]

Get ready, boys. This letter to the DFG Question & Answer column today smells like it was written by an animal rights activist!

Hazing Trespassing Canada Geese | California Outdoors Q and A

Using lead projectiles in air rifles in Condor Country?
Question: I know that air rifles are not technically considered firearms, but shouldn’t the lead pellets from an air rifle still be illegal in Condor Country because they contain lead? It would seem the reason for banning lead projectiles is because it is made up of lead, not because of the type of firearm/weapon/tool it came out of. What is the purpose of the lead ban if it is legal to use lead pellets from a pellet rifle? Isn’t there a health risk involved with condors and lead, thus the ban on lead? If the pellet rifle is not considered a firearm, isn’t this a flaw in how the lead ban law is written when it states that the projectiles come from a firearm? (Sarah D.)

Answer: DFG enforces the Fish and Game Code regulations after they go through the legislative process and are adopted by the Fish and Game Commission. You raise valid policy questions that may have been considered by the State Legislature and Commission in developing the lead bullet bans. DFG can’t speak for the Commission, but If you’d like to research this issue further, please contact the Fish and Game Commission directly. Their website iswww.fgc.ca.gov.

[ShooterJohn]

But you hunt small game with a pellet gun and you can still hunt small game with lead bullets too in the condor range. People using pellet guns aren't hunting big game animals.

[OrneryOlMofo357]

But what about the large bore pellet rifles? They can take down Coyotes. But I agree with Mt dog, it was indeed a troll that posted the question.

[ShooterJohn]

Large bore pellet rifles aren't legal for big game in California and the pellet question is already addressed here in the F&G codes:

Methods of take within the California condor range. Except as otherwise provided, it is unlawful to use or possess projectiles containing more than one percent lead by weight while taking or attempting to take any nongame birds or nongame mammals in those areas described in Section 3004.5, Fish and Game Code.

[Air Rifle Hunter]

I agree with MtnDog too.

That questions was obviously written by someone who is against hunting in the first place and is looking to stir the pot . Hopefully nothing comes from it anytime soon.

[ShooterJohn]

She's been smoking pot and so has the person that responded to her question. They are presuming to know what the F&G Commission was thinking or has taken into consideration. Why didn't the person that gave that answer give their name? Apparently it was Carrie Wilson who picked the question and gave the answer. I'll have a talk with her boss and see what side she's on.

[Air Rifle Hunter]

Large bore pellet rifles aren't legal for big game in California and the pellet question is already addressed here in the F&G codes:

If I understand correctly, their reasoning for using non-lead for shooting non-game birds or non-game mammals in the Condor Zone is because many people do not pick up their dead non-game birds and mammals and then these are in many cases left out where they can be consumed by the Condors or other animals for that matter.

The odd thing is, is that in most instances the pellets and or bullets pass right thought the animal and do not remain in the body of the animal, but are probably laying on the ground somewhere far behind the dead animal. So even if the animal was shot with lead and eaten by another animal, 99.99% of the time there would never be a lead projectile still in the animals body.

Since I haven't hunted in the Non-Lead Zone yet, I've haven't worried about purchasing non-lead air gun ammo. Besides, when I shoot ground squirrels with either of my M-Rods, the pellets always pass through cleanly and hit the ground behind them because they are shooting with enough power and the shots are almost always head or clean vital shots. I have used the Skenko non-lead pellet ammo and didn't really like it because it was really inconsistant and had accuracy problems in all of my air guns. I've used the H & N Baracuda Green pellets with some success in .22, but to me they are still very light at 12.65 grain and so many PCP air guns have to be tuned down to be able to shoot them at a velocity that will help then retain accuracy. I used the Baracuda Greens in my NPXL1100 when I had it. Shooting at around 950 FPS or more out of that gun they were fairly hit and miss as far as accuracy was concerned, though they might shoot o.k. out of a P-Rod.

[ShooterJohn]

How many condors have actually died of lead poisoning? Try to find that data somewhere from a reputable source.

[Bisley]

Hey SJ, do I sense a little bit of anger and bitterness? Tell us how you really feel . It's OK, I'm right there with ya

Maybe the airgun guys will get lucky and b....s bullets can produce them some cheap and abundant pellets like they did for the rest of us

[Air Rifle Hunter]

I doubt many have. If I recall, only one was found to have a piece of lead found in it's stomach or something like that (according to some supposed report). However, it could have been from a lead fishing sinker like the squeeze on type that was in a fish and the fish was eaten by the Condor. I could have been a number of causes.

[rws fan]

The DFG needs to watch some high speed videos of airgun hunting and they will see that the pellet always goes completely through the animal/pest ! I have yet to find a pellet in any of the small game I've ever taken with an airgun...

Henry

[Bisley]

Well, if they don't allow a rimfire bullet that is moving at 1600fps with a 40gr bullet (common .22lr), why in the world would you expect them to a allow much lighter pellet at half the speed (and much less energy) to be legal??? . Air guns are not "magical penetrating rifles" . Don't you think the heavier, faster bullet would penetrate better? But they still require lead-free in that.

And don't you also think centerfire rounds penetrate every time??? Believe me, if they banned lead in centerfires, they aren't going to thinking about the diminutive (by comparison) air gun

None of this matters since lead is legal in air guns (count your blessings), but if it is ever changed, don't expect them to watch a video and think that lead is OK for air, but not rimfires or centerfires. I guarantee those two get A L O T more pass throughs

[DirtyDave]

Now we just need Barney Bullets to get behind this and put out some copper pellets

[Air Rifle Hunter]

Well, if they don't allow a rimfire bullet that is moving at 1600fps with a 40gr bullet (common .22lr), why in the world would you expect them to a allow much lighter pellet at half the speed (and much less energy) to be legal??? . Air guns are not "magical penetrating rifles" . Don't you think the heavier, faster bullet would penetrate better? But they still require lead-free in that.

Hey, my Harry Potter Nimbus 4000 Pellet Rifle with Super Smooth Twist Maxie Elven Forged Barrel shoots Magical Penetrating Projectiles... Didn't you know that?

Anyway, I totally understand what you are saying Bisley and don't disagree one bit. What I'm saying is that it is ridiculous to ban lead because one bird ate some garbage and happened to swallow some lead in the process and they never proved it was a bullet from what I understand. It could have been lead paint off of some cheap toy made in another country that poisoned the bird. And if they do ban lead pellets in the Condor Zone, then when and if I hunt there I will use non-lead (as sucky as it is typically (too light and no expansion )).

And don't you also think centerfire rounds penetrate every time??? Believe me, if they banned lead in centerfires, they aren't going to thinking about the diminutive (by comparison) air gun .

Yes, you are absolutely correct. Centerfire rounds penetrate every time (in small and medium game, and sometimes even in big game) and yes it travels way, WAY faster than an airgun (let's not start bashing our poor little "diminutive" airguns because they shoot slower now... ).

None of this matters since lead is legal in air guns (count your blessings), but if it is ever changed, don't expect them to watch a video and think that lead is OK for air, but not rimfires or centerfires. guarantee those two get A L O T more pass throughs .

I for one and glad lead is still legal in airguns in the Condor zone. If the law is ever changed, I for one don't expect them to watch a video and change their minds. That would mean that they would have to be using their brain and "Logic" if they actually looked at "proof" of actual instances, instead of pulling worthless dribble out of their you know what for their own purposes and theorizing on the whole thing.

I don't think any of us are disputing that Centerfire or Rimfire shoot faster and penetrate better Bisley . I believe we are basically saying that banning lead projectiles is . Next thing you know they'll have to be made out of Carbon Fiber of some other odd combintation of things.

[Bisley]

I don't think any of us are disputing that Centerfire or Rimfire shoot faster and penetrate better Bisley . I believe we are basically saying that banning lead projectiles is . Next thing you know they'll have to be made out of Carbon Fiber of some other odd combintation of things.

Absolutely, just saying that if that logic didn't work for rimfire or centerfire, do not expect it to work for air. Ain't a gonna happen. Even if it all is to begin with.

Oh, and I would never pick on your air guns. That is why I refer to them as diminutive "by comparison", it was for fact, not cruelty . Truth be told, I am jealous you can still use lead. Good thing (for you) the law makers are too dumb to know that dead is dead, no matter what it came from.

[Air Rifle Hunter]

Truth be told, I am jealous you can still use lead. Good thing (for you) the law makers are too dumb to know that dead is dead, no matter what it came from.

... isn't that the truth.

[BCF]

The bottom line is, you don't have to use non-lead in pellet rifles ANYWHERE, including condor country. That's why I'm bringing my pellet rifle on an upcoming hog-hunt, to shoot some squirrels in between hog-hunts.