31 replies to this topic

[Yateswell]

Hey Guys, I'm using the Nosler 40gr. lead free BT bullet with 24.9 gr. of IMR 4895 as my coyote load but I've had 2 coyotes got shot at about 30 yards and were able to run away. This could be my part of poor shot placement, but I'm thinking at 30 yards, this load (any load for that matter) should do some serious damage. What's your experience on this bullet? Should I change to heavier bullet? Or should I try a different powder? I've heard good thing about H322 (nosler's website also has a load data for it), Thanks in advance.

[Rob]

Are you shooting a 223?The 40 gr Nosler with 38 gr of H380 works like a charm in my 22-250 Remington.

[Yateswell]

Sorry, I'm shooting 223

[Frank]

I am ASSUMING you are talking about a 223? If so, that is usually a very light load. Usually... as of course each rifle is different. In any case, that really would not matter anyhow, but just mentioning.There are only 2 reasons for failing to kill an animal quickly. Poor hits & poor bullets. In this case it could be either one or both. Even Nosler has told us, their 40gr non lead is not a coyote round & will disintegrate quickly upon, or shortly after impact.With that said, our gang has killed 4 or 5(?) coyotes with that bullet in both the 223 & 22-250, all with good results. BUT, that is a very limited number of kills to draw any conclusions with IMO. Just a limited guidline is all. I personally HATE all non lead bullets, mostly due to what Barnes has done to us, and the fact that no one has yet PROVEN a single Condor has died from lead poisioning. More political corruption that is alive & well in nearly every area of our society & leaders.My Frank

[Yateswell]

I hate non lead bullet too, but I don't have much choice, the non-lead bang is not going away. Anyone has good result with Hornady non-lead bullet?

[Caneman]

^^^ you don't like to shoot Barnes?

[Frank]

I hate non lead bullet too, but I don't have much choice, the non-lead bang is not going away

Yep, exactly, and is why I (& everyone else) have to use the non lead for the times we hunt the buzzard zone. Fortunatelyl, I also hunt (lead) areas.

^^^ you don't like to shoot Barnes?

For me, only as a last resort &/or absoultely HAVE to. Again, "mostly" due to what they did to us. Besides, in the smaller 224 cal with faster twists for example, they are a pain in the arzz to get them to shoot "accurately", especially consistently. Near impossible would be more correct. They do not get (too much/lol) of my $$.

[240 supervarminter]

im not a fan of lead free bullets, but i swear by nosler leadfree. im usening a 22-250 with 35gr.ers and 40gr.er's awesome bullet! my 40gr.er's are going close to 4200fps so that could affect how mine are workin vs. yours, but i posted a post on here not to long ago about how pleased i was with them. ive had nothing but bang flop with them. aslo a few pigs bang dead. from what ive gatherd they do open up fast but also keep penatrating, i have had them go through pigs at 100 yrds! thats the reason i started useing them for coyotes, usen regular bt ive had to many flow fur off and they keep goin so i figured the leadfree bullet woould atleat penatrate, and they sure do. give em another try they wont let u down.

[OrneryOlMofo357]

If I had to try a Nos 40 lead free in my Tikka 223 Id start at about 27 gr H335 and depending upon pressure may even head north of that figure..H335 and 40 grn bullets seem to work for me. lol I dont have to shoot them But DA Bob sent me some different Lead free bullets to try so I Bought a box of Barnes 53 Gr TSX And they seem to do the job when I have to hunt lead free zones.Speed those 40's up to about 3700 and see what happens. Good luck.

[Rob]

I'm with Frank on the lead-free butt heads at Barnes...they stuck it to us.

[Yateswell]

Looks like I need to speed up a bit, but I don't have a chronograph yet, any of you so. cal guys can let me use yours when you hit range next time?

[Bisley]

Why do you need a chronograph? It will not tell you pressure. Only loading, shooting, and checking your cases will do that. Load very, very cautiously until pressure signs begin to appear. Then back the loads back down just a hair. This way it will be going faster than you had it before, and as fast as you can make it go without problems. And if they don't work in that load (no matter how fast they are going) that bullet is not for you, since you will not be able to load it any quicker no matter what the chronograph says.

[Yateswell]

Make sense, but still nice to know how fast the bullet is traveling

[dabob]

Sorry, I'm shooting 223

What is the twist rate on your 223 Rem?I think Barnes is the only lead free bullet manufacturer that makes 224 cal bullets over 40 gr.Even with lead bullets I like the way 55 gr bullets put down coyotes better than the 50 gr and smaller bullets do.If your rifle has a 1-9" twist or faster barrel I would try the Barnes 55 gr MPG bullet, they are basically a 55 gr Varmint Grenade. I have killed a fair amount of coyotes with the Barnes 55 gr MPG bullet out of my 223's and my 1-8" twist 22-250 and they did a good job.For the guys that have to shoot lead free bullets at coyotes and they are going to buy a rifle, I would recommend buying a 243 so you can shoot the 55 gr or 62 gr lead free bullets instead of the 35 gr to 40 gr bullets.

[dabob]

I just looked at the reloading data on the Hodgdon web-site. 24.9 gr of IMR 4895 is the minimum load for 40 gr bullets. It shows a speed of 3164 fps. The data shows that if you use a different powder and get the load up to max, you can get the 40 gr bullet going 500 fps faster than the load you are using now. If you have to shoot a 40 gr bullet at coyotes get it going as fast as you can accurately.Just watch for pressure signs at the maximum loads, a chronograph is not needed.

[Frank]

I've posted this often, but will say it again...With the 40gr Nosler "lead" bullet in 223 caliber, my (26" barreled) rifle chrono's an avg of 3777 fps. Badcoyote's rifle chrono'd an avg of 3980 fps with the same load & no excessive pressures in either rifle. I've posted the load numerous times here.Not only was there a 200 fps difference between our 2 rifles above, I have actually chronographed as much as 300 fps difference between rifles with the same barrel lengths & same load. Reloading manuals are only a GUIDE LINE, not Gospel. So, while going by pressure signs when working up a load is ABSOLUTELY correct, one will never know for sure what velocity (& bullet drop) they are getting until chronopraphed. Of course targets @ various distances will work for bullet drop, but how many folks REALLY do that? Yes, some of us do, but not many. As far as bullet weights in 224 caliber goes, friends & I have killed too numerous of coyotes with the 50 gr Nosler lead bullet from our 22-250's. At over 3900+ fps there are few, if any other loads that will kill a coyote any better. It hammers them like Thor & if hitting bone, can cause devastating damage. Our taxidermist of approx 40 years said one of our coyotes from a couple years ago, was the most damaged he had ever seen. I only wish a had a picture of that canalope(+) size hole.Over the last several yrs or so, we started using the 40gr bullet instead of the 50gr in most of our 223's & 1 of our 22-250's. With both lead & non lead Nosler bullets, the kills have been excellent as stated earlier above. I still use the 50 gr in my 250 however. Again, it is Poor hits &/or Poor bullets that usually do not produce QUICK kills. I've seen enough coyote (& deer) run offs shot with just about every popular caliber, including 243, 30/06, 300 mags & others, to know that bigger is NOT always better. 40+ yrs ago I shot a (called in) bobcat with a 30-30 through both lungs at close range. It took it the longest amount of time to die from a solid hit that I had ever seen on a predator... So much for the slower, arching trajectory, heavier bullets!Frank

[Caneman]

a chrony won't tell you pressure, but it will show pressure spikes which correlate to excessive pressures...

[Bisley]

So, while going by pressure signs when working up a load is ABSOLUTELY correct, one will never know for sure what velocity (& bullet drop) they are getting until chronopraphed. Of course targets @ various distances will work for bullet drop, but how many folks REALLY do that? Yes, some of us do, but not many.

This is exactly why I don't like hearing about people owning chronographs. They will use it to check the speed and then simply adjust their scopes for their 300-500 yard shots without ever firing a shot that far. Knowing where the bullet is "supposed to hit" does not mean that their particular bullet will stabilize or even group at that range. It also does not mean that the individual has the ability to shoot that far!!! One should never take a shot any farther than they have checked themselves and that exact load previously. In other words, if you have never shot that load at 300 yards on paper to see how it performs, you damn sure should not be shooting it that far at a live animal just because your bullet drop table tells you where it "should" hit. Yeah, it may drop 7" at 300 yards, but without ever shooting it and knowing, it may also be hitting 6" to the left one shot and 4" right the next.Just to be clear, it is not that I have anything against the machine or those that use them. It is just that in the hands of 99.9% of the people that own them it is improperly used so as to eliminate any kind of actual skill, practice, and old fashioned proof positive shooting. And before you guys get too upset, yes, I know some of you do actually do it the right way. But most don't.........

[Frank]

Ugh... I just lost my post. Hope it works this time.Anyway, Bisley, I totally agree with you. Most folks indeed will not take the time to do what it takes to understand & KNOW what is going on with accuracy & trajectory at various 2-300 & even 400 yard distances... but shoot at game further out anyway! If one would shoot targets at various distances, one would discover their "good" 100 yard, 5 shot groups AREN'T so good at 2 or 300 yards with certain factory ammo OR handloads. Which would help them to find the RIGHT factory or handload of course. You also bring up a good point about a bullet drop chart and how much a bullet is SUPPOSE to drop... but actually may or may not! Here's another one...Often times in the field, your rifle & ammo can produce a much flatter trajectory than what a chart says it's "suppose" to (as you correctly pointed out), thus causing your bullet to go OVER an animal if not allowing for that less bullet drop. This is especially true in my case since I sight in close to sea level & then hunt at approx 2000-6500 ft for coyotes & up to 10,000' for deer.So, this is where first hand experience can come in handy on both target & game at various distances & locations. Elevation(a big one), atmosphere conditions, temps & angles all effect bullet drop / trajectory. I've had some HUGE surprises on just how much flatter shooting a round can be on game. Hmmm, looks like I have a few more stories to write, eh? LOL Interesting ThreadFrank

[Yateswell]

Spoke with Nosler today and they said they don't have much field feedbacks/comments on coyotes for this particular bullet, but they did mention 2 things I thought should share with you all.1. Due to the design of this bullet (poly tip), they say it will be less effective on coyotes if the bullet impact at higher speed.2. Change the shoot placement, aim for the rib/mid-section where the soft tissues are.Not the exact answers I was looking for, just an fyi.Frank, my savage 12fv has twist rate of 1:9, I will look into Barnes MPG.Dabob, 24.9 gr. of IMR 4895 is what I have for this load.Thank you all for your comments, much appreciated.

[tawnoper]

Man, I like chronographs. Just for dialing in a load...making sure a 22-250 is shooting 22-250 velocities, and not .223 velocities they are a benefit. For people who like to shoot long range they are pretty much a necessity. I don't consider 300 yards a long shot in terms of long range shooting....it IS a long poke in field conditions but is pretty much childs play off a bench shooting a flat shooting rifle at KNOWN distance. No need to dial in anything for that. I do agree, if you plan on taking long shots it's best to practice them. Also, it's fun. Knowing what your velocity and bc up front is very helpful. By far, more than anything wind becomes a much tougher challenge then gravity as range increases. Yeah, just like the guys booming away at a 60-70 yard dove...often clipping one and have it soar off into who knows where...you'll have guys who went to the range, started shooting at and eventually hitting gongs at 500 yards so they think they are on...and now can make these shots in the field. Luckily these types of people are the lower percentage of hunters, they usually know just enough to be dangerous.

[Desert Fox]

If you hand load and you don't own a chronograph, then you owe it to yourself to get one. It is an essential tool that every hand loader must have. Shooting your hand load without a chronograph is like driving a car with no speedometer.

[Bisley]

I would have to disagree with you on that one. It may help if you're into the long range shooting game (wouldn't know about that) but it is not a necessity for hunting. Besides seeing garage attics full of old deer antlers on both sides of the family (not one chrony in the family) I don't need a speedometer to tell me that a 2 ton truck going 10 mph will kill a coyote or rabbit under it's tire just as effectively as a 2 ton truck at 40 mph. Much like a chronograph, a speedometer only tells you how fast you are going, not how hard you are working the motor. For that, you need to look for signs (just like shooting) such as heating up, valve float, etc..Load it as fast as you can without any pressure signs and until accuracy is affected, and hunt with it. If you are going to try and tell me that anybody's hunting is going to be impaired because they don't know exactly how fast their bullets are flying, you've been standing way too close to your electronic equipment. Any hunter worth his salt will test his loads at all distances he intends to shoot, so he will be able to know where his rounds will hit and not where they "should" hit.An informative tool and a way of satisfying an intriguing question, yes. But a necessity of a tool for a hunter (or reloader), far from it. Just about every hunter out there would be far better off spending the money that would have been spent on a chrony and use it for ammo to practice off-hand and other various positions rather than know how fast their bullets are traveling

[Yateswell]

Oh man, I should have listened the warning and not getting into reloading

[Desert Fox]

Load it as fast as you can without any pressure signs and until accuracy is affected, and hunt with it. How fast is too fast... how can you tell!

[tawnoper]

A chronograph has way too many attributes for even the most basic reloader to dismiss. I wouldn't knock one if you haven't used one. A necessity...no. But neither is a computer...or a cell phone.They make sorting out reloads much easier and effective.I went a long time without one myself. Loaded up a ton of rounds that went boom no problem. Once I started using one I wondered why I didn't get one earlier. If they were expensive like an Oehler I'd say too much moola for the recreational shooter...but they make some very affordable ones nowadays.

[Bisley]

I wouldn't knock one if you haven't used one.

Nobody's knocking them, just simply stating that a vast majority of people would be better off learning to shoot better rather than learning how fast a bullet is traveling. I did say they do have there place for a select few, but for almost every hunter who has ever pulled the trigger, 200-300 fps even, will make little difference worth noting. And way too many rely upon the speed alone as being a source of pressure. Not so. Just saying that WHERE you hit is much more important than how fast it is being hit. And way too many worry more about the wrong one. Not saying anyone in particular does, but one trip to a public range with your ears open will tell you the sad truth that most shooters (and reloaders) are more concerned how fast they are shooting and not how WELL they are shooting. One should learn to shoot first. Then learn to reload. Then worry about speed and shot to shot consistency. Sadly, most don't do this. That's all I'm saying.

[Desert Fox]

Most of us started reloading to save money... yeah right! At least that's how most of us perceived reloading in the beginning. For some of us however, we pick up reloading because we want maximum performance for our shooting iron... factory ammo just don't cut it. We expect our hand load to be very consistent, accurate and at maximum velocity for maximum terminal performance on game. With that said, I will tell you why chronograph is necessary in both persuasion as I stated in my previous post. I considered chronograph to be the most important reloading tool I own. Probably next to a PBL Model 43 if I ever own one someday. Let me tell you why. I look at speed as a safety indicator! That's because velocity equates pressure. The higher the velocity the higher the pressure... there's no free lunch. Forget about looking for signs like flattening of primers, hard extractions or extractor marks on the head case. By the time you see these signs, you my friends were already living on borrowed time. Some might ask why not just follow what the reloading manuals recommend. Well, understand that those data were compiled in a controlled environment, with the best instrument money can buy, using their rifles/pressure barrels and components, which is totally different than yours. We handloaders don't have that luxury. Worst yet, we have to test our handloads ourselves. You're dealing with tens of thousand of pressure right in front of your face and a for a price of two boxes of premium ammo, you can own the only instrument that can at least tells you if your ammo is safe and you're going to deprive yourself of that?

[Caneman]

^^^ agree 100% with you on the pressure signs, most of it is like reading tea leaves and most of these pressure signs are entirely dependent upon the materials used in the case and the primer... about the only reliable pressure sign is stuck cases, sticky bolts, and blown cases, other than that you really don't know...aside from the chrony helping to sort out loads and help avoid over pressure, it is just plain fun to use!

[tawnoper]

but for almost every hunter who has ever pulled the trigger, 200-300 fps even, will make little difference worth noting. One should learn to shoot first. Then learn to reload.

Amen.And I agree with most of what you said.Unfortunately, even less people out there that call themselves reloaders can identify pressure signs on a fired case although they think they can. A flattened primer can be caused by excessive headspace, a tough bolt lift by a little softer brass etc. lots of variables. As stated, a chronograph will help let you know what's going on. A flattened primer and tough bolt lift on a 22-250 shooting 3200 fps is usually not a pressure problem...but for a guy just shooting and evaluating his brass, he probably thinks he has a laser on his hands.