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Rifle Help ????


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#1 Bennie

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 09:05 AM

I have a very high end rifle that I acquired cheep. One of my friends won it at a Rocky Mountain Elk Dinner. To make a long story short. It is a $3600.00 dollar rifle if you was to go out and buy it new. I got it for a lot less after it sat in my friends safe for 9 or 10 years. He does not big game hunt. I will try not to bad mouth any ones product here. You can tell by just holding this rifle that the smith has a lot of pride and craftsmanship in his work. As a matter of fact the Smith has been around to long and I have never heard any thing bad about him so I will keep my mouth shut until I figure this out. I wanted this rifle the very first time I seen it and got it after waiting several years.Down to business with out bad mouthing any one's product. As a matter of fact I am hoping some one here can tell me how stupid I am and why this rifle is not shooting.The rifle is a total custom build on a Remington 700 action. It has the best of every thing done to it. Blueprinted ActonLapped and Face trued BoltMatch grade stainless steel Lilja BarrelMuzzelbrakePillar glass bedded composite Stock and much more.It is a 300 Win Mag with an 11 twist Barrel that weighs less than 5 lbs. I have tried 3 different kinds of 180 grain Ammo through it and am going to try a lighter grain bullet next time like a 165. It is shooting a 4 to 6 inch group. It is not me. I had such a hard time with this rifle shooting a group this big I had two other guys shoot it also. We all have no idea what is wrong with it. I have put two scopes on this rifle, and the second one I used a Badger Ordnance 20 moa one piece mount, and rings to mount it with. I also used a torque wrench and loctite. Although I did not use real high end scope yet on this rifle. The scopes I did use are supposed to handle recoil. I was really trying to see if this rifle was really what I wanted before going to real high end glass.The rife shot decent groups with both scopes the first few shots. Then every thing went to crap with both of them. I really think this rifle has broke each of the scopes, with just a few shots each before breaking.But really I do not know. I do think this rifle should shoot less than moa. I have several out of the box rifles that shoot less than moa with me behind them. What do you guys think?
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#2 4RHUNTS

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 09:10 AM

Since this rifle is sooo light I am guessing the recoil is pretty stout not only to the shooter but those "lower end" scopes too. I believe you have correctly realized you need to put some decent glass on it and go from there.

#3 Bennie

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 09:40 AM

Since this rifle is so light I am guessing the recoil is pretty stout not only to the shooter but those "lower end" scopes too. I believe you have correctly realized you need to put some decent glass on it and go from there.

Yes that is exactly what I am thinking. But with the muzzle brake the recoil is bad, but not half as bad as my Slug Shotgun shooting 300 grain slug. My shotgun will hurt a guy period. It will make me and others that have shot it make up new cuss words when shooting it off a bench a few times. The recoil on this rifle is hard to explain, it is violent, but it does not hurt. It is just a really quick violent explosion. I really don't know how to describe the recoil of this rifle. I am having a hard time believing that it has broke two brand new scopes. But That is what I think has happened. The scopes I put on it are supposed to handle recoil well. I am either going to have to take one of my good scopes off of my good shooting rifles and put it on and take it back off, which I do not want to do. Or wait until I can afford a new high end scope.
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#4 Divernhunter

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 10:13 AM

Light rifle and muzzle brake means you are going to get a pluse like an air rifle. That is a sure way to destroy a lesser quality scope. Mount a Leupold on it and you can be sure that problem is solved.

#5 Frank

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 10:28 AM

Wow, Bennie, I hate whenever that happens and sorry to see you having this problem.Well, of course it will be a process of elimination to find the cause, IF, you ever find it.One inexpensive way, would be to take it to a competent gunsmith to check out the barrel. They may not find anything even if there is a problem but it can't hurt, & again, "should" be relatively inexpensive.I've had a couple scopes go bad on me, cheap and expensive ones, so it does happen of course. The odds of having two bad ones in a row like you had would seem to be slim, but hey, lightning CAN strike twice in the same spot. Or so I hear anyhow.Ya know, I'm also suspecting the muzzle brake. Have you fired it without the break on, if it's a removable type? I have seen them (one) installed CROOKED by a so called competent gunsmith. The owner replaced the entire barrel with a custom one. YIKES!Also, I seriously doubt it's the handloads, as even poor loads normally shoot better than 4-6" at 100 yards. Normally!Anyway, you ARE the man, shooting a 300 mag weighing under 5 lb. That would leave me out. LOL A muzzle break would likely be needed in that case, as severe muzzle jump will also enlarge a group. But again, doubt if it would be 4-6"'s bad though.Well, there's my :signs1180lq: & hope you get it resolved soon. Let us know what it was.Good LuckFrank

#6 Rimrock

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 10:29 AM

I would put the two scopes you had on it on another rifle with lighter recoil and see if they will hold a group.

#7 tawnoper

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 10:50 AM

I got it for a lot less after it sat in my friends safe for 9 or 10 years.

I'd imagine one of the first things you did was to clean the bore really, really well.
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#8 Bennie

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 11:34 AM

Frank I have contacted the smith that built the rifle and am waiting on his reply. Told him the whole story. Curios to see what he has to say?? He has been in business too long and I have never heard any thing bad about him. I also am not shooting hand loads through it. I am shooting three different kinds of Factory ammo that shoots well out of my stock Remington 700 300 win mag. I do ok with recoil and sighting in big rifles. My friends usually bring there big stuff to me. Just sighted in a custom 700 in a 257 Wetherby Mag and a custom 700 in 7mm STW. They both shot like lasers and were owned by the same guy. He offered to let me take the 7mm STW on my elk hunt. I wanted too, but did not want to be the first one to put a scratch in it. What shooters both of those rifles were. Dream rifles.Drivenhunter & 4RJUNTS I put these two what I am calling cheep scopes on this rifle just to see how well I could shoot a rifle this light. From what I have read and heard these scopes are supposed to handle recoil well. I was hoping to shoot it less than moa out to 600 yards. I have never had a rifle this light before so was just trying to see what it would do. If I liked the way I could shoot it I was going to put a real high end scope on it. I am going too now just too see if it will shoot. But I really thought what I put on it would stay together long enough to see how well I could shoot it out to the 600 I was looking for out of it.Rimrock I have not tried these two particular scopes on another rifle yet. But I have another scope just like one of these that I shot 5 five shot groups in too one ragged hole with. That is why I purchased another one to try on this rifle. What I am calling cheep is $400.00 and some change on that scope.tawnoper I cleaned the barrel twice and did not even look at the group of the next three bullets after cleaning it. Most of my rifles shoot better dirty and I do not clean them until they start opening up in their groups.P.S. I would be shooting right now and trying to figure it out. But Raith came by and grabbed it because he needed the case it was locked in to fly to Wisconson for a Whitetail hunt. The rifle is locked in his safe right now and I won't be able to get it until he gets back. This is Killing Me. I cant even sell this rifle with it shooting like this. I have to fix it.
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#9 ehd

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 12:07 PM

Could be alot of things. I doubt that it is the scope. Easy way to tell is check your boresight after each shot. could be the stock not seating the rifle well. That shows up bigtime on the larger caliber rifles. also the recoil lug, not fitting up against the block. Every shot will hammer against the bolts.

#10 tawnoper

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 01:29 PM

tawnoper I cleaned the barrel twice and did not even look at the group of the next three bullets after cleaning it. Most of my rifles shoot better dirty and I do not clean them until they start opening up in their groups.

Gotcha.BTW...there is a difference between dirty and fouled. Once they start getting fouled (any gun) the accuracy really starts falling off.One of the first things some gunsmiths do to rifles they receive that "just wont shoot" for no apparent reason is to give the bore a good scrubbing with something that removes powder and copper fouling. Something like JB paste. A lot of times that solves the problem... or at the least eliminates it from the list.
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#11 ratassassin

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 05:00 PM

You have my sympathy. I've been trying to get my Remington 700 .30-06 to shoot and, after 500 rounds of hand loaded high quality bullets, I finally got it down to about .50 MOA last weekend by carefully sanding down the barrel channel which was making irregular contact as the barrel was heating. That won't be your problem since you have a pillar bedded composite stock, unless the barrel is not free floated and is making irregular contact.How many rounds does the barrel have through it? Ask the gunsmith and previous owner whether the rifle has ever shot well and, if so, how well did it shoot at its best and what factory ammo or load combination did it like. On the other hand, if they tell you it has never shot well, then at least you know that and can go from there. Anyhow, congratulations on getting a nice rifle. You'll figure it out.

#12 ratassassin

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 07:13 AM

Another thought. You might check the stock screws to see if the action is torqued down too tight. That can destroy accuracy, too. I think that was one of the problems I was having with my .30-06.

#13 Bennie

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 07:44 AM

I torqued them down to 65 inch pounds. ??? Still waiting to see what the smith has to say. It is pillar glass bedded and this is what I have read that rifles bedded like this are supposed to be torqued too???
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#14 jawbreaker

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 07:56 AM

Sell that remington and buy yourself a tikka, they shoot straight out of the box. :flag:

#15 Bennie

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 08:03 AM

I have been laying around thinking about it and think it could be a bedding issue? I think I may try to put a few pieces of black electrical tape under the barrel, right in front of the recoil lug, to temporarily float it. And shoot it a few times to see if it improves before I try another scope. Has any one here ever tried any thing like that and what would you suggest to raise the barrel out of the channel temporarily just to see if that may be the problem?
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#16 OrneryOlMofo357

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 08:07 AM

Sell that remington and buy yourself a tikka, they shoot straight out of the box. :bleh[1]:

I Hope Frank don't read this! LOL
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#17 Bennie

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 08:16 AM

Sell that remington and buy yourself a tikka, they shoot straight out of the box. :bleh[1]:

I have thought about selling it and getting a new 700 Sendero. :1087: But how can a guy sell a rifle like this and get his money back out of it. It is not worth 2 cents right now in my books, and I have a bunch more than that in it. There is lots of rifle brands out there that will shoot better than this one will out of the box. I have just always been a Remington guy. I have been shooting them so long they just fit me. I don't have to look at the 700's to take the safety off, or load one. Can't change brands now. I am Remington retarded. :lol:
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#18 Frank

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 11:41 AM

Sell that remington and buy yourself a tikka, they shoot straight out of the box. :lol:

I Hope Frank don't read this! LOL

:lol: BLASPHEMY, I SAY, BLASPHEMY... And Thank Goodness, Bennie, for hanging in there. You made my headache go away. They can be a rough crowd here sometimes. :bleh[1]: :1087:

#19 ehd

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 11:59 AM

sorry double posted

#20 ehd

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 12:02 PM

take one of your other remmys and switch stocks just for kicks. Hows the headspace?

#21 Desert Fox

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 01:49 PM

Who is the brake manufacturer. Some brakes can be hazardous to a scope. I have a 338 Lapua Ackley that ripped apart two IOR Valdada scopes in less than 50 rounds. I mounted a MK4 on it and never had a problem since. Double check everything (mount, action screw, rings and bore condition). Check the crown for any damage and lastly check the barrel channel and see if there's any binding.
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#22 ehd

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 03:34 PM

that also might be why the custom maker donated it to the elk dinner. :bleh[1]: alot of those folks that win those guns never take them out to see what it will do as you have. I want all my rifles to shoot as best as they possiiibly can as you do. They are all fixable ,just depends how much money do you want to throw at them..

#23 Bennie

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 10:01 PM

take one of your other remmys and switch stocks just for kicks. Hows the headspace?

Good idea!Desert Fox. It has a Quiet Slimbrake II on it.
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#24 Shoot-it

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 10:37 PM

I hope that's not true the guy experimented on the rifle making it light with a muzzle break and then decided to donate it to the elk dinner.Something is wrong that's for sure.Can you post a picture of it?

#25 Bennie

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 08:35 AM

The rifle is definitely not an experiment. I am trying to figure out what is wrong with out even mentioning the smiths name or the scope's brand. I am really hoping I can figure it out with out putting any one or any manufacturer to blame. I would rather that it was me, but don't think it is. I will tell you if it is me. Don't have a problem saying that I R RETARDED some times. The rifle is not a one of a kind. The Smith has been making them and selling them for years. The scopes I have put on it people on here have sworn by. Although they are not Leupold, Nightforce, Schmidt & Bender, or USO I thought they would hold up and do not know for sure that the scopes did break. So I do not want say any thing bad about them either. I have broke scopes before. My .270 is a light weight rifle also and broke a Redfield WideFeild scope that was on the rifle for years. The Redfield broke right after I put a real light weight stock on it. Sent it to Redfield thinking they would fix it and they sent me a bran new one. Put it back on the light weight 270 and it did not last a season. I got pissed then and put a Night force scope on my .270 after missing a big deer. I knew it was the scope on this rifle for sure, because it always was a good shooter. I will say this about Redfield. Years ago they were a top notch product and I loved my Widefield scope. The one they sent me to replace it was not of the same quality as my 35 year old scope. I still have the broken RedfIeld and have been hearing good things about them again. May have to send it back in and get another one. My old Redfield Mounts and Rings looks just like what Leupold is using today.While I am on my rant. It does not make any sense to put a Nightforce scope on a light weight rifle. They are heavy scopes. My quest for a tuff light weight rifle that I can shoot may be over after this, if I can't get this fixed. I believe I will though. Other wise it is back to 12 to 14 lb rifles for me.
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#26 clampdaddy

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 11:18 AM

For some reason I have a suspicion that the brake may be to blame. Not that it is causing a scope wrecking recoil pulse but that it was possibly either installed just a few thousandths off center and allowing a greater amount of gas to blow past one side of the bullet, or that it is installed properly but was bored to large and allowing way to much gas around the bullet and causing an unpredictable bullet departure. Is the brake removable? If you could shoot the gun without the brake it would really help to narrow down the possibilities.
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#27 ratassassin

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 06:43 PM

Bennie, I think you should talk with the gunsmith who made the rifle and see what he says.

#28 Bennie

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 09:34 AM

I have sent them E-mails, and they have unbelievably contacted me twice over the holidays in the last two days. I know we will get this rifle fixed. It is just a matter of time. Hopefully a short time. I don't even care if I have to tell everyone here I am real Stupid. I just want this thing to shoot straight.Clampdaddy I am waiting to see what the smith has to say as of now. If the Muzzle Brake is removable I can not tell by looking at it. I cant see any machineing marks that tells me it will screw off. The web site where the rifles was built says that it is removable but that it looks like part of the barrel. I can not tell by looking that it is not part of the barrel. The craftsmanship in this rife is pretty good. I am really hoping that it is something real simple to fix.P.S. I got this from another site just reading about these rifles.(keep in mind a 5lb 300 is gonna lay a pop on you. the recoil force is not bad, but the velocity is way sharp, so scopes are not likely to last long......been down that road too.)So I think I better just put a High end Scope on it and Shoot it again and go from there.
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#29 Bennie

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 09:38 AM

The Gunsmith and I have been talking via e-mail. He says he thinks it is a bedding issue. He said he really can't tell with out me sending it back. But said the rifle should definitely shoot a a lot better than what I am claiming it will do. So back to the builder it goes.
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#30 ShooterJohn

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 09:43 AM

Glad to hear he is willing to look at it and get it fixed.

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