21 replies to this topic

[dlburns]

Looking to do some pig & predator hunting south of Hollister next weekend and need to get some 7MM and .223 lead free for the 'Condor' zone.I thought what better place to ask for reccomendations than here!Also a good place to purchase near San Jose.Thanks guysDave

[Bisley]

You can always contact these guys and ask them where the CHEAP AND ABUNDANT lead free ammo they PROMISED is at BARNES UNLEADED. UNFAILING. UNBEATABLE.Barnes Bullets, LLC. 38 N Frontage Rd Mona, UT 84645 But I will NEVER be happy until they are out of business for what they did to us. Please do the entire hunting community a favor and look for Hornady or Nosler lead free products. Please......And good luck with the pig hunt.

[DirtyDave]

I like the Hornady GMX. It shoots well out of my 30-06 and my POI does not change when I switch to the SST (leaded).For the .223 I use Winchester Tin core

[dlburns]

Thanks guys...I will look into the Hornandy, Nosler and Winchester.Dave

[rude robert]

They are expensive though.

[ratassassin]

Research the Hornady GMX a bit. I remember reading somewhere that because the gilding metal is harder, it needs to be traveling at a certain minimum speed at point of impact to expand properly. I just don't remember offhand what that minimum speed was. It shouldn't be a problem with faster calibers but could be a problem in the slower calibers.

[Frank]

Dave, are you handloading or buying factory stuff? You mention 7MM & not a caliber is why I ask. I personally HATE ALL NON lead ammo, & ESPECIALLY Barnes. But I also HATE our F&G commision or any other "politician" that was involved with the Great Condor Fraud. Which is exactly what it is & is also heavily active in our neighboring states. We are being unjustly persecuted, no mistake about it. So while I am absolutely with Bisley on this one, I am also some what of a hypocrite with the Barnes, as that is what I have my oldest son using in his 270 wsm in factory ammo.I'm guilty for a reason. I want my son to be able to just pick up his rifle & hunt most anything, anywhere, in or out of the Condor zone. So far, the 110 gr (Barnes) Fed factory @ approx 3500 fps with good accuracy is the top choice. So pls do not be too hard on me Bisley. As with my oldest son, you too are trying to cover a LOT of bases with just one ball. From pigs to predators is a BIG difference & obviously the hog will need a much more stout bullet than for a coyote.For coyotes, our gang has had good luck with the Nosler 40gr non lead. We've killed approx a half dozen dogs, all with excellent results... SO FAR! However, I personally would never try that bullet on hogs. I read different things about the GMX, TSX & other non lead bullets. I personally believe that non lead bullets are more inconsistent & less reliable as a whole, than are lead bullets. And maybe why so many mixed reviews. Maybe??Good LuckFrank

[Bisley]

I'm guilty for a reason. I want my son to be able to just pick up his rifle & hunt most anything, anywhere, in or out of the Condor zone. So far, the 110 gr (Barnes) Fed factory @ approx 3500 fps with good accuracy is the top choice. So pls do not be too hard on me Bisley.

Haha, ok, I won't be tooooo hard on ya. Actually, I don't really get mad at folks that use them. I just like to make sure they know what they did to us and know that there are other brands to try first. I know some rifles are only going to shoot b....s bullets well and not the competitors. And I can live with that (barely). I just think we owe it to ourselves to try others first. Besides, my dad uses them too in his .223, and I can't even begin to tell you how angry that makes me! But I haven't disowned him.......YET

Research the Hornady GMX a bit. I remember reading somewhere that because the gilding metal is harder, it needs to be traveling at a certain minimum speed at point of impact to expand properly. I just don't remember offhand what that minimum speed was. It shouldn't be a problem with faster calibers but could be a problem in the slower calibers.

Since it is the exact same material used on the jacket of leaded bullets, I can't see where it would be a problem. Since it is harder than pure copper though, it will not foul the barrel as easily too.

I read different things about the GMX, TSX & other non lead bullets. I personally believe that non lead bullets are more inconsistent & less reliable as a whole, than are lead bullets. And maybe why so many mixed reviews. Maybe??

I have heard LOTS of stories about no expansion also. I wish I knew of some first hand experiences with them. Judging from what I've read (if it is indeed true) it seems like the ones that have had the most problems were the b....s bullets with the hollow point tip. I am guessing that this may be caused by the hollow point clogging with hair and such and acting as more of a FMJ. I do notice that I don't hear nearly as many horror stories about it now that they have all gone to a polymer tip which will help to start the expansion process better than a hollow point. But this is just what I have concluded, and is by no means pure fact.

[dlburns]

Guys,Thanks for all the suggestions. I am going to use the 7MM mag for pigs and the VTR .223 for predators.Dave

[dabob]

The deer that we have shot with the lead free Barnes TSX & TTSX and the Nosler E-Tip bullets all had a small entrance hole and a small exit hole. But all of these bullets did some big time damage as they went through the deer. In 1983 I had a brilliant idea that if I shot a deer with my Rem 7mm Mag using a 160 gr Nosler Partition bullet, the Partition wouldn't mess up a bunch of meat because the bullet would stay together as it passed through a deer. I shot a nice buck in Wyoming and when I looked at the deer I thought great a small hole in and a small hole out. When I skinned the deer I saw that my meat saving bullet idea didn't save me any meat. There was a huge hole about the size of my fist all the way through the deer and there was about 4" of blood shot meat all the way around the huge hole.Two years ago most of the coyotes that I shot with my 243 Win I used the Barnes 80 gr TTSX bullets. All of the coyotes fell over right where they were shot and they all had a small entrance and exit hole. Last year I switched to the Barnes 62 gr Varmint Grenades for my 243 Win and my 243 WSSM. I only got a few exit holes with the 62 gr Varmint Grenades.

[CA Desert Dog]

I agree 100% with Bisley and Frank. I believe the non-lead offerings are inconsistent regarding expansion and accuracy. Just when you think you have the non-lead offerings dialed in, some flyer screws up a well placed group. It seems that in the communist state of Kaliforniastan, our hunting world and the DFG is ruled by a mix of junk science and political science (The term "science" is used loosely here as it applies to CA state government). Apparently Aristotle's definition of science, "scientific knowledge is a body of reliable knowledge that can be logically and rationally explained", has nothing to do with the Kaliforniastan legislature or the powers that be at Fish & Game. Combine the dishonest politics with the likes of Barnes and bingo, stupid, self-serving legislation that takes more of our freedom away and does zero for that stupid bird that should have been extinct years ago.This entire non-lead nonsense is just another example of the feel-good liberal politics that permeate our state legislature. The liberal nanny state is a desease that has ruined Kaliforniastan.

[Hipshot Percussion]

Excuse me for not getting it.................why bother with this stuff? If I lived in the zone I would carry the legal stuff if anyone asked..................but I would use what I wanted. And for you guys that say your breaking the law...........so what, if I get caught, I pay the fine. No one in their right mind thinks this stuff works but it looks good on paper in Sacramento. From the same people that pass laws about using a cell phone while driving and everyday I see hundreds of people ignoring the law.

[mtn dog]

Are you aware of some of the recent vetoes coming from Gov. Jerry Brown (including raising the penalty fine on driving while using cell phone)? I'll give credit where credit is due. He actually seems to 'get it'! He wrote this comment yesterday when he rejected a 'Nanny' law to force kids to wear helmets while skiing or snowboarding: "Not every human problem deserves a law." http://blogs.kqed.or...-philosophical/I can't say I'm filled with hope but I wish I could have seen the faces of the Democrat legislators whose stupid bills were killed by Brown. I sure hope this is the start of a trend. The true test will be if Brown can see through the liberal smoke screen on pending gun legislation.

[Bisley]

Excuse me for not getting it.................why bother with this stuff? If I lived in the zone I would carry the legal stuff if anyone asked..................but I would use what I wanted. And for you guys that say your breaking the law...........so what, if I get caught, I pay the fine. No one in their right mind thinks this stuff works but it looks good on paper in Sacramento. From the same people that pass laws about using a cell phone while driving and everyday I see hundreds of people ignoring the law.

Hahahaha. Hipshot, that is why I have bought exactly ONE box in each caliber. I use 15 to see what it will do, and 5 as what I call "magazine fillers". As for getting caught with a leaded one in the chamber? Well, I'm pretty clumsy and may have an accidental discharge into the air when emptying it for anybody..........Not that I've thought about this or anything

[Frank]

From the same people that pass laws about using a cell phone while driving and everyday I see hundreds of people ignoring the law.

A couple(?) weeks ago or so, My wife got a $160 ticket for using a cell phone while driving. Her FIRST offense. But I blame that on her... for not being more observant. LOLI just returned from the range this morning testing some more lead free cxxp. Another possible problem is, that while non lead loads can be extremely accurate at 100 yards, they also can unravel at 2 & 300 yards. Or at least with some of the loads we tested. I mean opening up a LOT (4+") groups at just 200 yards. The same can happen to lead of course, but I've never seen it to that degree(bad); at least in our limited testing with the non lead. I also always wonder just how well the non lead really does in the wind or trajectory. Argggggg I've often thought about doing what Hipshot stated, using the lead anyway in the buzzard zone. But my bad luck is one concern, as I have been stopped and thoroughly checked several times in the buzzard zone, and I SELDOM hunt there anymore. My being checked was prior to the implementation of the non lead law. However, I no longer see game wardens anymore like I had in the past. Bad economy is not all bad I guess?! So???? LOLI wish I could say this (non-lead stuff) was a love-hate relationship, but I can't... as it's ALL HATE for me!Frank

[Hipshot Percussion]

They have these really cool things out there called ammo belts......the cheaper ones are made from canvas and fit real nice under a shirt .......now they may ask you to empty your pockets but I seriously doubt they will make you strip and they are too lazy to get to far from their trucks so you should be able to unload your gun and throw the one's in the brush when they aren't looking. I haven't been in that area in years is there really anything to hunt there? It seems to me it's eaiser to drive to a better area.

[dlburns]

Hip,I am open to suggestions as to better places to hunt...getting'general' ideas of areas is like pulling hens teeth around here!Dave

[dabob]

They have these really cool things out there called ammo belts......the cheaper ones are made from canvas and fit real nice under a shirt .......now they may ask you to empty your pockets but I seriously doubt they will make you strip and they are too lazy to get to far from their trucks so you should be able to unload your gun and throw the one's in the brush when they aren't looking. I haven't been in that area in years is there really anything to hunt there? It seems to me it's eaiser to drive to a better area.

For me it is much easier to use lead free ammo that is legal to use. Wearing a ammo belt under my shirt or driving hundreds of miles out of my way doesn't sound like it would be easier. The Condor Zone is not a little spot of land that everybody can just drive away from, the Condor Zone covers about 1/3 of the state. You wouldn't have to drive very far to spend 20 times more money on gasoline than you would spend on lead free ammo. There may not be any better places to hunt coyotes outside the Condor Zone than the places we hunt inside the Condor zone.I don't like this stupid lead free ammo law but I am not going to sell my house and move or quit hunting because of the stupid law!

[Frank]

I haven't been in that area in years is there really anything to hunt there? It seems to me it's eaiser to drive to a better area.

Well, IMO, the short answer is Yes, there are things to hunt there... And (2nd), while driving to a better area is certainly an option, it does not however, always make it the "best" option due to... Depending on how much "time" one has to go hunting. I can make it to my hunting spots in the Condor range anywhere from 1 1/2 - 3 1/2 hrs, depending on exact location. My "better" areas can take anywhere from 4-12 hrs. This makes it semi difficult, nor would I want to, run out to these better areas for a morning hunt & return home the same day. A BIG disadvantage for us city slickers!Also, as we all know, the closer to any city, the worse the hunting can be & is especially true where I live in L.A. County. That is unfortunately the price ($$$) us hunters have to pay living here. Anyway, like most things, the harder one works at something, the better the results one can normally achieve. Normally! This is ESPECIALLY true when hunting closer to a city like L.A. But, you are right. If I lived closer to a good NON lead area, I certainly would not be hunting the buzzard zone at all. It would not make any sense to me. But hey, whatever floats one's boat, eh? LOLFrank

[CA Desert Dog]

First of all, state & federal laws are for suckers . If ya get caught with lead ammo in the Sacred Condor Zone simply say that you are a union member from the state of Washington, a Black Panther, a democratic party supporter or part of a Condor Zone flash mob. You can finally use some of your high school Spanish and answer "Que?" to every question you are asked. Claim to be a relative of Obama's and demand to call the White House. Or do what every self respecting politician does, say "I accept full responsibility for my actions.", and then proceed to get on with your life. After using that line, nothing more ever happens. Oh, you can also cry . That seems to work for a lot of public figures. Don't be a sucker and obey the laws.....follow the example of the present administration and do whatever you want.

[mattador96]

I have only shot 2 animals with lead free ammo. Both of them with Federal Triple shock 165 grain out of a 300 wsm. One was a young pig I shot at roughly 30 yards. He ran for about 30 yards and piled up. The entrance and exit hole were really small. I hit him right behind the shoulder. The other was a Yak I hit 3 times at 184 yards. After the guide finished it off I inspected the wounds. The entrance and exit wounds were really small. The bullet groups really well but the holes were not imporessive. I am going to try some 180 grain Winchester E-tip. These lead free bullets are really expensive.

[Bisley]

I am going to try some 180 grain Winchester E-tip.

Nnnnnooooo yyyoooouuuurrrr nnnnooootttt. Maybe some Nosler e-tips, but not Winchester e-tips.................. I know, if I were a gun, I would bean A R