34 replies to this topic

[Frank]

Well, BADCOYOTE and I went to the range last Tuesday with our Remington 700's, both in 223 caliber.Both of our rifles like one particular load that I have mentioned before, but will say again. It is 28.5 grs of Benchmark powder & the Nosler 40gr ballistic tip bullet. BTW, this same load also does well with Nosler's 40 gr NON lead bullet AND hits the 100 yard target in almost the exact same spot. Pretty cool!Accuracy has always been incredible with one of BADCOYOTE'S groups putting all 5 shots in one hole under 1/4". While neither of us shot quit that well last Tuesday, we did come close. So accuracy, without excessive pressures have always been excellent. It's the Velocity in his rifle that semi surprised us.My rifle has always chronographed this load at an approx average of 3772 fps with an approx 12 fps deviation. However, when we chronographed this load in BADCOYOTE'S rifle it measured a s i z z l i n g 3970 fps average. That's a CLOSE approx, as I do not have the written #'s in front of me. Anyway, it was a whopping 200 fps faster than my rifle. While that velocity spread is not too unusual between different rifles, we were still pleasantly surprised. I have seen 300 fps differences on a number of occasions between different rifles with a same load, but semi forgot about it... until then! lol Anway, who needs a stinkin 204 or 22-250 anyhow? (besides me that is) LOLFrank

[OrneryOlMofo357]

Frank, Impressive results! I have never used Benchmark as of yet since the H335 has done most of what I need. Please keep us posted as to the Noslers performance On Coyotes! I know that the lead variety has worked well for me, and am looking forward to your results!

[Frank]

Hey Grant, I'm not sure of the exact # of coyotes we've slain with the 40gr Noslers, but will guess approx 3 coyotes for each bullet... the 40gr bal tip and Non lead. Performance was excellent on every coyote, which I have to admit surprised me with the Non lead bullets. In fact on two coyotes, one each killed with a lead and non lead bullet had incredible damage that one would expect from an explosive 243 round. I've seen unbelievable damage from a 50gr Nosler out of a 22-250, but a 40gr from a 223??? Awesome!More time & tests will tell of course, however, definitely so far, so good Frank

[Frank]

YIKES, I accidentally omitted one important detail...The high velocity of 3970 fps was attained with NICKEL plated Winchester brass... When we chronographed that same load with regular Winchester brass, the velocity dropped 50 fps to 3920 fps avg. Primers were the same in both types of brass, which was Fed 205 match.The 3772 fps that my Rem 223 produced, was also with Winchester regular brass. So now I have to try some nickel brass of course. UGH, as I almost never use that stuff... But may end up with it now?? LOL Anyone need approx 1,000 rounds of (twice fired) Winchester brass? lolFrankp.s. Thanks John for putting this in the reloading section. Man, I'm losing it!

[OrneryOlMofo357]

I have read statements from Steve Timm, "outdoor writer" that he has found nothing wrong with Nickel plated Brass, and uses it alot. However wether the Nickel plated brass can withstand more pressure and give better velocity, I have no idea. I shoot Winny brass all the time.. Most have 12-13 reloads on them with no split cases or any problems..Shoot me a PM with a price on yours! Good luck with the new load Frank. Keep us posted!

[Frank]

LOL... Hey Grant, that is (one) of many problems with this stinkin internet stuff. Can't see the person or tell if one is joking or testing folks reactions or just plain mistating, mis-interpreting &/or mis-leading stuff.Anyway, no, I'm not selling the brass, at least for awhile. In fact, I would just give it to you if I no longer wanted it. I have never been a fan of nickel or chrome products especially for brass or barrels etc. Until "maybe" now that is. LOL OH, and yes, Winchester brass is the only brass I use... for decades! I've actually had this load since around 2008, but wanted to report how much higher (200 fps) velocity BADCOYOTE'S rifle produced over my (same rifle), AND the higher velocity he received in his rifle with the nickel brass (50 fps) over regular brass. Interesting!So, with me being a speed junkie as you know, I just HAVE have to buy some nickel brass to at least test in my rifle for any "possible" velocity difference over the regular brass. LOL I will let you know if there is any velocity or accuracy difference in my rifle between the two brass. Film at 11 Frank

[OrneryOlMofo357]

Frank the main reason that I responded is that most " Internet " jockeys will state that Nickel plated Brass, will flake off and ruin your dies? I have read this many times.. but much like other internet hype I have found no validity to it. Now maybe someone can come up with actual proof to set these fears to rest, but until then I wont worry about it. I wasnt trying the beat you out of your brass btw.. Im just enjoying the post, and actual hands on usage. Thanks again for posting. I know that I wont be skeered of Nickel plated Brass.

[Frank]

Thanks, Grant...And I honestly never thought about you trying to beat me out of the brass. I actually thought your's was a legitimate question, considering my crazy remarks about getting rid of the brass to begin with.I too am not worried about using the nickel brass. It will be another interesting project... I hope! lolI'll keep you postedFrank

[OrneryOlMofo357]

Please do Frank.. Silver bullets indeed have a lure to them!

[Desert Fox]

Frank the main reason that I responded is that most " Internet " jockeys will state that Nickel plated Brass, will flake off and ruin your dies? I have read this many times.. but much like other internet hype I have found no validity to it. Now maybe someone can come up with actual proof to set these fears to rest, but until then I wont worry about it. I wasnt trying the beat you out of your brass btw.. Im just enjoying the post, and actual hands on usage. Thanks again for posting. I know that I wont be skeered of Nickel plated Brass.

Grant, It is true. I once use Winchester nickel plated brass for my 280 and I did experienced flaking after sizing the brass several times. It is also hard on your die. I quit using them. Anybody wants it, I have a few i can send your way. You pay shipping however

[Frank]

Hey, Fox, approx how many times had your nickel brass been reloaded before you noticed the flaking?Reason I ask is, I no longer load my brass after the 4th firing, just to help eliminate or reduce potential handloading problems. Many years ago, I reloaded brass (of all calibers) a LOT & still have some of those old brass today... but won't use them. Not sure why I kept that old stuff now that I think about it. lolI'm sure I would be ok loading 223 brass more than 4 times, but haven't done it yet. But we'll see!Anyway, I'm thinking that if the nickel brass were not loaded more than 3 or 4 times, I hopefully would not have any (flaking) problems. What do you think? (of course that won't help my dies any).In either case, I'll still give them a try. Inquiring minds and all... not to mention my speed addiction. LOLFrank

[Desert Fox]

Frank, I'm not too sure, but no more than 4 or 5 loadings. The flaking was mostly at the neck area.

[tawnoper]

I've been using nickel plated .223 brass a lot of years now. The main and only reason for me was to be able to keep my brass easily separated from a few different rifles and dies of the same caliber. I've never had a problem with nickel and don't believe they damaged the dies I use with them. It is a bit harder as you can feel a slight difference when sizing between plated or non plated like brass or when trimming/deburring cases...but it's a slight difference. I'm not sure how many sizing I get with them...brass is a consumable that eventually needs to be replaced.

[Frank]

Thanks Fox and Ed... I appreciate that... Whenever I get some (nickel) loaded and tested for accuracy and velocity I will report back. May be a bit now though, with hunting season nearly upon us. Maybe??Thanks AgainFrank

[dabob]

Frank said.......... who needs a stinkin 204 or 22-250 anyhow? (besides me that is) LOLIf you have to shoot lead free bullets, I agree with Frank's above statement about the 22-250.I don't know of any 22-250 factory rifles that have a fast enough twist to shoot the lead free 50 gr and bigger bullets. Unless you plan on putting a faster twisted barrel on a 22-250 you might as well get a 223 if your going to shoot 35 to 40 gr lead free bullets. The 223 will get the 35 to 40 gr bullets going pretty dang fast.

[OrneryOlMofo357]

Well, now we have 2 sides of the coin. One that has Nickel flaking, and one that does not. Im wondering if size of caliber makes a difference? How about annealing? I cant remember reading of anyone annealing the Nickel plated? Could that cause it? I got about 6 pieces that came with my 223WSSM, but never reloaded any of it. The fellow Steve Timm I mentioned earlier uses it alot, but only spoke of .223 and 223 AI. Always wondered about this.

[Frank]

Yeah, Grant, we sure can get differences of experience or opinions on lots of "stuff", which is normal of course. And you bring out some good questions as to the possibilities of "why" this flaking may (or may not) occur. Either way, I'm gonna give the nickel a try, now (almost) out of curiosity more than anything. lol Just kidding... but I am gonna try the nickel, as that velocity potential is just killing me. As you know. LOLFrank

[ratassassin]

Frank, Congrats on the load. Those are crazy speeds for .223 Rem. My 40 grain V-Max load runs at 3450 out of my varmint rifle's 26" Krieger barrel. Are you getting flattened or cratered primers? Bolt sticking at all? Mike

[Frank]

Thanks Mike, & yes they are indeed crazy speeds that I never expected. ESPECIALLY in BADCOYOTE'S rifle. I've actually been using that load in my 223 for several years now. Anyway, no, no excessive pressures at all... None! But you will likely need to trickel the last bit of powder into the case when handloading them.We've ran that load through several (#?) rifles, and if I remember right, only one rifle did not like this load. I was semi surprised, considering the excellent results we were having in other rifles.I almost fell out of my chair when BADCOYOTE'S rifle chrono'd an AVERAGE of nearly 4,000 fps (3970). His rifle is also EXTREMELY accurate and is a stock Rem barrel. He just made it LOOK custom with the twisted flutting. He now leaves his extremely accurate and fast (Rem) 22-250 in the safe. LOL Hope this helpsFrank

[dabob]

My Nosler reloading manual shows quite a few different Max loads for the 223 Rem with a 40 gr bullet at 3600 fps to over 3800 fps.

[OrneryOlMofo357]

3970 is flat scooting! Especially for a standard 223 There are a couple Guys Ive talked to that swear they can get over 4000 safely But they didnt do it with a stock rifle. That load looks like a keeper. BTW Frank... you will be happy to know that I called in a Coyote this morning using that new sound that I posted about. Man that stout load of H335 with that 40 gr Vmax really sounded good! Both Times. The Coyote ran away! I Missed at 40 and 50 yds Broadside! I sat the Tikka down and said " Im not worthy" LOLMaybe I better shoot that 700 a lil more? lol

[Frank]

That is too funny, Grant... although a WHOP sound would have much sweeter to the ear, eh? LOL Even after all these years, it still amazes me how we can mess up the most easiest shots & yet slam the difficult ones... (lack of) Consentration along with coyote fever maybe? Pretty cool calling him in on your new sound. Did you happen to use it first or?? How long did it take for mr. coyote to show up? Man, now I'm itching all over (to go calling). Why you do that to me? LOLYeah, the Rem gods were working against you today my friend. Now you'll have to take that Remmy out to apease them. Frank

[OrneryOlMofo357]

Yeah, I may have to take the remmi out and pray to Big Green to save my honor.. lol As for the calling, It was windy, and the Coyote came in at about 13 mins? This is in an open pasture with a few irrigation ditches to cross. Its about a 300 acre pasture. But it sure made him curious. Good hunting to ya this year Frnak!

[Shoot-it]

don't blame your jerky trigger on the rifle......

[Fjold]

I really like the light bullets at high velocity inside of 300 yards. I've been playing with the 36 grain VGs out of my 22.250. It's got a 24", 3 groove Pacnor Supermatch 1:10" twist barrel on it and I've got them running at 4405 fps using H4895. They literally explode ground squirrels but I haven't tried them on coyotes yet.Zeroed at 1.5" high at 100 yards, I'm at -1.5" at 300 yards

[Frank]

You're singing my (velocity) song, Frank... Then again, what can we expect from 2 Franks, eh? I would love to hear how the 36gr VG works on the coyotes whenever you find out.I have the standard, slower 14" twist in my 26" barrel 250 and am getting somewhat inconsistent results with the 40gr non lead. One group is great, the next is avg. My 223 has a 12" twist & the 40gr non lead works well in it. At least at 100 yards. I have not grouped them at 2 or 300 yards. So who knows?I am hearing the 35gr should work better in my 14" twist 250 & may give that a try? Heck, even in my 223 for that matter!Let us know how you do on ole wiley with that 36gr bulletFrank

[CA Desert Dog]

Thanks a lot Frank. Now I have to buy ANOTHER powder and strive for the speed and accuracy you are getting. That sure sounds good to me. When "Hot Loads Kenny" reads your post he is going to go wild. Hope to see ya sometime. Maybe we can meet for lunch or something.....Red

[Frank]

Hey Red, lunch would be nice. We could meed at Field Time or some place else. Just now saw this, as I was out shooting AT a (LARGE) coyote Frank

[homemade]

thats a compressed load?

[Frank]

Yes... Very!