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XP-Airguns "the Fifty Eight" vs. .44Magnum Revolver


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#1 Butcher45

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 07:49 PM

Just some food for thought.820 grain @ 4500 psi - 747 fps = 1016 fpe Sectional Density .348630 grain @ 4500 psi - 821 fps = 943 fpe Sectional Density .268 (Superior SD compared to a 300grain .44Mag bullet)433 grain @ 4000 psi - 922 fps = 817 fpe Sectional Density .184412 grain @ 4000 psi - 943 fps = 813 fpe Sectional Density .175 (same SD as a 250grain .45Colt)The 412grainer would certainly be OK for any deer at 50 yards don't you think? LOL!Much debate over "killing power" formulas for sure. Whatever anyone may think of them, they may believe one to be more"in the ballpark" than the others, or maybe even fairly accurate. I know that I have yet to find a ballistic calculator that asks whatpropellant is being used. So I'm putting these 300grain1300fps .44Magnum numbers up in the hopes it may add even a little perspective to what we're speaking of in this .58Ranger.I'm just guessing with that .44Mag load, but it sounds like a plenty hot load to me as I chronied my friends (Remington I think?) 240grain .44Mag loads at 1400fps, so I'll use it for the comparison.Most should agree a .58 630grainer has good sectional density, momentum, and great penetration potential (superior SD compared to 300grain .44Mag).So I am running the numbers for the 630grainer821fps/941fpe, and using various calculators I found on handloads.com, and the Beartooth Bullets Ballisticians Corner page..44Mag Handgun Vs XP Airguns "the Fifty-Eight" Air Rifle ComparisonComparing the momentum of a 300grain 1300fps .44MAG to that of a 630grain .58821fps, the .58 scores 73, the .44MAG 55.The Permanent Wound Channel Formula (Veral's DV Formula with Beartooths' game criteria) believes that the 630grain load is good for Black Bear 350-500lbs, and thinks the same of a 300grain.44MAG1300fpsThe Thornily Stopping Power Formula (scored 169) thinks the .58 is good for Lion, Leopard, Grizzly Bear, Brown Bear, and that the .44Mag is good for Black Bear 350-500lbs).The .58 scores a Taylor KO Value of 43. A 300grain .44Mag1300fps scores 24.So in "theoretical math land" the .58 scores equal to the .44Mag in a few of the "theoretical" formulas, and far exceeds the .44Mag it in the rest.The momentum calculation and sectional density calculations, however, are not so theoretical. Rough estimations, but good for comparison between two calibers. The .58 edged the .44Mag out in sectional density and stomped it when it came to momentum. Momentum and sectional density seem to me to be key factors in penetration, which is a huge part of what we are after when speaking of any hypothetical Elk load.Any way you slice it, that rifle is capable of leaving a lethal boo-boo on most any game. The real question for me, is "Will it put lots of Elk blood on the ground?" I am thinking it would do pretty well.

#2 Bisley

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 09:59 PM

I have only one thought on this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't air guns shoot pure soft lead. And if they do, I can think of one concern. A very soft lead will expand very, very quickly. Even though it may be very heavy, it is not moving fast at all! Not only will it begin to lose it's already dismal speed as soon as it leaves the barrel, it will have lost a lot even at 50 yards, and will lose even more even quicker the second it begins to expand upon impact. How much it loses and how fast it loses it I do not know, but I would sure as Hell check it out on a store bought ham with a bone in it before I tried to take an elk with it. A heavy bullet at even low-moderate speeds is one thing, but a heavy soft bullet moving at almost sub-sonic speeds is another. Just something to consider that the numbers and math don't explain. Books are great for reference, but this is one I would try hands on first.

#3 Butcher45

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 11:33 PM

I have only one thought on this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't air guns shoot pure soft lead.

Not necessarily. The same .45Colt slugs sold to hunters for reloading can be shot thru the more powerful air rifles such as the XP Airguns offerings (it even says so on the web-site). Elmer Keith used about a BHN14 alloy, and the Ranger can easily shoot slugs that hard and harder. My much less powerful SamYang 909 air rifle shoots a 50/50 mix of WheelWeight-pure lead stuff well (around BHN9....%90harder than pure lead) which is a common mix used for .45ACP casting. There are several bigbore airguns out there shooting "hardcast" stuff real well. Pure lead can and usually does shoot very well, but it isn't vital to shooting a bigbore airgun.Any of those slugs shot from the .58Ranger will have lost very little velocity at 50 yards due to the sheer size of those slugs, and their high sectional density's. Play around with this calculator, and see what you think. For example, my SamYang 909 shoots 154grain EPP/UG's at around 850fps, and has a reticle height of 2.25 inches (I think that's right....been awhile). I zero to 50 yards, so I have close to a 2 inch point blank range of 60 yards on bobcats and coyotes.http://www.handloads...calc/index.htmlCheck out these penetration tests by John Linebaugh and company.....he says a 260grain .45Colt Keith at about 950fps reliably penetrates mule deer and antelope stem to stern at 100 yards for his family. From that info, I'm thinking "the Fifty-Eight" would work great on a broadside, or quartering away shot on an Elk@short range. Just stay away from hollowpoint slugs on animals that size, and go with a large meplat solid to ensure penetration.http://www.handloads...ation.tests.asp

#4 Bisley

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 12:28 AM

Yes, harder cast lead certainly changes a lot of things. Like I said, I'm not all too familiar with air guns. I can tell you this though, the .45 caliber bullets of harder cast lead will work fine for the .45. But you were asking about the .58. They do not make cast lead bullets for the .58 like they do for all the usual calibers (44, 45, 38, etc.). And the round ball they refer to on the XP website I guarantee you is the same soft lead muzzle loader ball. Having family in the middle of elk country (CO) I can tell you they do not like using soft lead on elk in muzzle loaders, rifles, pistols, or anything. They prefer the heavier (400-500gr) conicals, but still wish they were cast a little harder. Again, not saying this .58 cal air gun won't do it, or won't do it ethically. Just saying I would be sure of the hardness of the lead first, and still do some real world testing (on actual meat and bone) before going off for elk with it. Remember, those speeds you listed earlier are even slower than .45ACP, .44 Special, or even .44 Winchester (.44-40) speeds. And that's from a pistol to boot. At those lower speeds, you really need to be very sure of the hardness of that bullet you intend on using since penetration will be the only going for it, not expansion.

#5 Butcher45

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 04:36 PM

I think it's safe to say that a solid .58 caliber slug comes pre-expanded.........that is a very big hole to put thru the entire length of a critter. With all that weight and sectional density behind it, it's going to be really hard to stop that slug.If I owned a .58 I would cast my own slugs for sure (from as hard an alloy as I could without loosing velocity), and would likely try some of Accurate Molds .58 offerings along with a custom mold or two from Veral Smith/LBT. Veral has already produced a few airgun molds.Remember, the legendary original .45Colt slug was only going about 850-900 or so fps, and is said to have penetrated horse and rider. I've seen several reports of large whitetail deer, and 300+lb hogs shot with air rifles of the same power as the .45Colt (using soft lead) that looked pretty impressive to me. The 400+grain slugs are almost never recovered unless they are hollowpoints.I would definitely do a lot of terminal ballistics testing before going after something like an elk (though I am already confident the .58 will do great on broadside 50yard shots). Before I went on my first hog hunt with my tuned SamYang 909, I bought half a frozen pig head and thawed it out to test penetration, and practice my aimpoint for the brain. I also consider the corsican ram I killed to have been a ballistic test for my tuned SamYang 909 (punched thru well). I call that tuned 909 good for deer and smaller meat hogs, and just about ideal for predator hunting.I chronied some regular 230grain FMJ .45 loads shot out of a commander length barrel years back, and they were going just under 800fps.




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