28 replies to this topic

[Red Dog]

I'm going on a hunt in a couple of days where we'll be in cold weather, lows around 20 degrees. What knid of lubes work best in these conditions? I've been looking around, and I found some stuff that said a dry lube like graphite would work well. Especially since the number of rounds fired will be limited. I normally wouldn't have thought about using graphite but the info I found made sense being a limited number of shots fired. With the dry lube, there would be nothing to get thick and sticky to cause a misfire. What works?

[Brant]

It's got to be Break Free (Mil spec on temperatures ranging from -65F to +475F ) What the military uses.http://www.copquest.com/65-1000.htmOh they sell it at Walmart for about $4 a can.

[Red Dog]

I've been using a product made by Winchester that's called "Break free CLP" and I may have gotten it from Walmart. I wonder if that's the same stuff.

[Brant]

That's it. Winchester licensed it from Break Free.

[tawnoper]

Graphite.I'm not an AR guy...but for my auto pistols, shotguns and even a little bit on my bolt action rifles, a little dab of graphite works well.

[Brant]

From a previous thread graphite can be corrosive on aluminum and alloys. If you Google about it you will see multiple warnings.http://www.thehighro...p/t-370991.html"NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER use graphite on an AR, or any other gun with an aluminum receiver or other parts.Graphite eats aluminum, via corrosion, if the humidity is high or it gets moisture in there."

[tawnoper]

Gunslick Graphite Gun lube. Been used forever by lots of folks...good stuff. About 2 bucks a tube...lasts forever. It's worked well for me (actual user).Remember...the internet is free. Anyone with an opinion on something can speak up (unfortunately). Do a search on just about anything and you'll get a ton of different opinions. I am ABSOLUTELY convinced that the majority of opinions you read on the internet are not formed from actual experience. It's up to the reader to separate the fly sh_t from the pepper.

[Red Dog]

From a previous thread graphite can be corrosive on aluminum and alloys. If you Google about it you will see multiple warnings.http://www.thehighro...p/t-370991.html"NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER use graphite on an AR, or any other gun with an aluminum receiver or other parts.Graphite eats aluminum, via corrosion, if the humidity is high or it gets moisture in there."

Enough No's on that page to help shape an opinion.

Remember...the internet is free. Anyone with an opinion on something can speak up (unfortunately). Do a search on just about anything and you'll get a ton of different opinions. I am ABSOLUTELY convinced that the majority of opinions you read on the internet are not formed from actual experience. It's up to the reader to separate the fly sh_t from the pepper.

You are so right, thus, I'm polling you guys for another opinion. With all of these opposing opinions, I'm forming my own.

[Brant]

This has been debated on many other forums with the facts cited. The issue is when graphite, water, and chloride ions (like salt in the air or from your hands) mix. Graphite by itself is not corrosive but the combination is. The problem is graphite is a conductor and you can get galvanic (bimetallic) corrosion. I don't know how frequently it occurs but it is a real phenomena. The question always comes down to if there are other better options available why bother with it.

[tawnoper]

Well...I sure hope you find the answers you're looking for.Good Luck.

[CA Desert Dog]

If you're just yote hunting and you're not shooting loads of rounds, I'd simply clean it and give a super light dab of Break Free here and there.

[fyrewil]

Gunslick Graphite Gun lube. Been used forever by lots of folks...good stuff. About 2 bucks a tube...lasts forever. It's worked well for me (actual user).Remember...the internet is free. Anyone with an opinion on something can speak up (unfortunately). Do a search on just about anything and you'll get a ton of different opinions. I am ABSOLUTELY convinced that the majority of opinions you read on the internet are not formed from actual experience. It's up to the reader to separate the fly sh_t from the pepper.

"seperate fly shitzkie from the pepper"

[Brant]

Should definitely be better mixed with grease like Gunslick's product as a slick lubricant and protected from moisture. Not sure you want that in the cold, however. That is a might different than dry graphite powder.

[Red Dog]

If you're just yote hunting and you're not shooting loads of rounds, I'd simply clean it and give a super light dab of Break Free here and there.

This is the way I'm going to go.Thanks for the input guys.

[Brant]

Also Gunslick has been discontinued.

[tawnoper]

Also Gunslick has been discontinued.

Interesting.If I look on Midway it does say discontinued...if I go to Outers site they still sell it.No biggie, not really worth talking about a 2 dollar tube of lube anymore lol.

[Brant]

I know several that are stocking up on a few tubes before it disappears. I heard Rig grease is being discontinued as well.

[Portagee_Shooter]

Break free is what I use in my AR in all conditions....almost dripping!

[Red Dog]

Well we went out and unfortunately didn't shot any coyotes. But, I did fire off a couple of rounds. The super light coat of break free worked just fine. The temps were not as low as predicted though. I think the low was 29. It was probably 33 when I fired the two rounds. Still it was a decent experiment.

[Shoot-it]

Vaseline!

[Stan]

Or Tri-Flowhttp://www.triflowlu..._Lubricant.htmlHave used it for years and every day on the locks I service Super Lube is a good one as well and market a Teflon grease stainless slides just a dab and doneRemember almost dripping is not good just enough nothing more you don't want to attract and hold dirt or carbon

[375ranger]

I've been using a product on my Daniel Defense AR called TW25B from Mil-Comm. I got a sample when I bought my Sig P220. I think Sig sells it thru their proshop. I bought a tube, and at 20-95 degrees, it's been running like a champ. It's a synthetic lube that won't hurt metal, plastic, rubber. Just a thought.

[kpog]

First post but I think Ballistol is great for cold weather, I find it surprising how uncommon it is for the quality.

[KClark]

Breakfree, used it in ARs predator hunting in Montana at -5, never a problem.

[yoteblaster]

very long read but very good read for us Black Rifle Ownershttp://www.slip2000.com/S.W.A.T. MAGAZINE FILTHY 14Bravo Company Carbine Goes 31,165 RoundsBy Patrick A. Rogerspage 55 - October 2010THE M16 WAS FIRST PROMOTED AS A GUN THAT NEEDED NO MAINTENANCE.While that statement proved false, a number of factors, including propellant powder and a lack of cleaning supplies and training, led to failures on the battlefield that are still being ballyhooed by muckrakers and the unknowing. They ignore the fact that the M16 is the most accurate and efficient rifle ever used by the military.However, it is no more a perfect weapon system than the Glock, 1911, M1 rifle or any other rifle, airframe, ship or person.Much of the noise related to this comes from unrealistic expectations such as the “one shot, one kill” nonsense that used to permeate military training, as well as poor discipline and tactics. Expending six magazines at the cyclic rate when the enemy is 400 meters away and then complaining that your carbine overheated may make headlines, but is also a sign of poor training and leadership.Additionally, not all ARs are the same. Military weapons are held to a standard and factory Quality Control and outside Quality Assurance mean that problems are minimized.Aftermarket makers may hold themselves to that same standard or even exceed it…or they can ignore it and substitute below-standard parts.The latter means that some parts may not meet the mil specification for a number of reasons. This may mean Magnetic Particle Inspection and pressure testing of the bolt and barrel have not been performed or the type of steel used for the barrel and bolt carrier group (BCG) is not up to spec.For the average shooter, this may not be an issue. In fact, it may be smart marketing for some makers, as the average AR owner shoots their guns little, if at all.From my perspective, I don’t aspire to mediocrity. I shoot a lot and stand behind students who are also shooting all day. I prefer to have weapons built to or exceeding the standard, but also understand that not all users have the same needs or requirements.But neither do I—not for one New York minute—believe that all ARs are the same.At my company, E.A.G. Tactical, we are fortunate in that manufacturers regularly provide us with guns in order to see how they perform after a reasonable period of evaluation by students at our classes. While we have written about some for S.W.A.T. Magazine (LMT, S&W, M&P, LWRCI and Colt 6940), others have never seen the pages of this magazine.Caveat. As we are not carrying these guns for real, we spend little time doing any preventive maintenance. We know that a properly maintained AR will function well. Our purpose here is to see how well the guns will function when left dirty but well lubed. I don’t suggest that you try this at home, especially if you are carrying these guns professionally.While we used to see a wide variety of guns at class, the quality control of some makes is lacking. Apparently students have been reading the after-action reports on Lightfighter.net and Alumni.net, as we have started to see a swing toward those guns built to (or exceeding) the spec. The net result has been fewer busted guns and more time to better conduct training.BRAVO COMPANYBravo Company USA is a relative newcomer, having entered the market in 2003. Bravo Company MFG was born in 2005 and started producing complete uppers at that time. Bravo Company USA produced a very small number of lowers in 2007, and Bravo Company MFG has been producing lowers since 2008. At this time Bravo Company does not sell complete guns, but several of their dealers do.Paul Buffoni, the owner of Bravo Company, has built an extremely successful business based on providing quality products with excellent customer service.We have run a number of Bravo Company guns over the past five years. While most were unremarkable in their boring reliability, one has stood out, both for the longevity of the evaluation period as well as the number of rounds put downrange.FILTHY 14As of this writing, EAG students have 31,165 rounds downrange through Filthy 14. During this evaluation period, it was cleaned once (as in one time), at 26,245 rounds. The end result is that Rack #14 was—and remains—filthy. It is filthy because it has been shot at class. Only at class. Every round that has gone down that barrel has been fired at class, with an average of approximately 1,300 rounds every three days. It has been lubed generously with Slip 2000 Enhanced Weapons Lube (EWL).The combination of carbon and lube create (wait for it)…filth. It is so dirty that, while sitting in the rifle rack, it is almost a biohazard. The filth oozes out and contaminates other carbines adjacent to it.But it is still shooting—and shooting well.Rack #14 is a 16-inch Bravo Company Mid Length Carbine—mid length meaning that the gas system is two inches longer than the standard carbine gas system. This permits the use of a nine-inch rail with the standard front sight base. Use of a clamp on the front sight will permit a longer rail to be used.The longer rail is necessary to accommodate some shooting styles, as well as to provide additional rail estate for the various white lights and IR lasers required to kill bad guys at night.Subjectively, the mid length system has a softer recoil impulse.The lower receiver is a Bravo Company USA M4A1, one of very few in circulation. It has a TangoDown BG-16 Pistol Grip. An LMT Sloping Cheekweld Stock (aka the Crane Stock) rides on the milspec receiver extension, as does a TangoDown PR-4 Sling Mount.The upper is a BCM item, with a milspec 16.1”, 1:7 twist barrel. The barrel steel is chrome moly vanadium (CMV) and certified under milspec Mil-B-11595E.The BCM bolt is machined from milspec Carpenter 158® gun quality steel, heat-treated per milspec, and then shot peened per Mil-S-13165. Once completed, each bolt is fired with a high-pressure test (HPT) cartridge and then magnetic particle inspected (MPI) in accordance with ASTM E1444.The handguard is a LaRue 15-9, the nine-inch model to allow full use of the available rail estate.We have a TangoDown BGV-MK46K Stubby Vertical Foregrip. We use TangoDown BP-4 Rail Panels.The primary sight is an Aimpoint T1 in a LaRue 660 Mount. The T1 is still on the same set of batteries, and it has never been shut off. The back-up sight is the Magpul MBUS and the sling is the Viking Tactics VTAC.This is a normal configuration for our guns, although stocks (Magpul CTR, Vltor I-Mod), BUIS (Troy), and day optic (Aimpoint M4s) may be substituted.IN SERVICEWe received the carbine in late 2008 and put #14 into service shortly thereafter.At Brady, Texas, in March 2009, it suffered a malfunction, which was reduced with Immediate Action. The bolt was wiped down at 6,450 rounds.At Prairie du Chien, Wisconsin, in May 2009, it had several failures to extract, and the extractor spring was replaced at 13,010 rounds. This is far beyond the normal extractor spring life under these conditions.At Wamego, Kansas, in June 2009, two bolt lugs broke at 16,400 rounds. We replaced the BCG. Considering the firing schedule, this is within normal parameters.At Columbus, Ohio, in November 2009, we had several failures to extract at 24,450 rounds. The shooter gave it a field cleaning and replaced the extractor and extractor spring.At 28,905 rounds, we finally cleaned Filthy 14. As part of our year-end maintenance schedule, we inspect and replace parts as necessary. Filthy 14 looked like the inside of the crankcase of Uncle Ed’s ’49 Packard. It was disgusting to look at and contaminated everything near it, somewhat like the toner cartridges for old printers.I plopped it into a parts washer filled with Slip 725 parts cleaner, and 20 minutes later it was clean. Mostly clean, anyway.We have never used a bore brush in the barrel of this gun. We did run a patch down the barrel twice, but that was all. At 50 yards it still shoots two-inch groups, and we understand that it might not at 100 yards and beyond, but we are happy with the fact that, even at 50 yards, the gun is capable of tighter groups than most of the people running it.We have never used a chamber brush in this gun either. We were often told that this was an absolute must.Sure…At the last class in Casa Grande, Arizona, at approximately 30,000 rounds, we had several failures to extract. We replaced the extractor spring and wiped down the BCG.By the time you read this, we’ll likely have another 3,000 to 4,000 rounds through Filthy 14. At that point we’ll probably retire it. We’ll reuse the LaRue rail, the sights and, after rebuilding the lower, replace that old and well-worn mid length upper with something else.Fourteen will continue, but just not as Filthy 14.WHY WE DID ITWhat was the point of this 15-month exercise? We know than an AR built to the spec will run more reliably for a longer period of time than a hobby gun. We have run a number of guns to over 15,000 rounds without cleaning—or malfunctions—as long as they were kept well lubricated. And because we have over 20 Bravo Company guns in the armory, we also understand that the quality of one is not an accident.My background of belonging to a tribe where weapons cleaning approached Jesuit-like fanaticism caused me to once believe that the AR must be spotlessly, white-glove clean in order for it to run.We know that is patently false, and in fact the overzealous cleaning regimen—clean for three days in a row, use of scrapers on the BCG, attaching chamber and bore brushes to drills, etc.—is harmful to the guns.We know that not all ARs are the same, and only a fool believes that “parts are parts.”If you want something that is visually similar to what the military uses, buy just about anything and you’ll be satisfied. But if you are going to use it for real, buy something that is made to the spec.Have realistic expectations. No gun—or car, plane, hibachi or person—lasts forever. Recently a customer sent an upper back to Bravo Company complaining that the gas tube was bent.It sure was. It was bent because the owner apparently fired 600 rounds downrange in full auto, causing the gas tube to melt into the barrel. If you want to be stupid, buy a lesser quality gun and save yourself some money.Again, let me repeat the caveat. If you are carrying a gun for real, you need to be looking at it every 5,000 rounds or so. But if your cleaning takes more than 10 to 15 minutes, you are wasting your time on nonsense.At a carbine class in Colorado last year, one-third of the carbines used (eight of 24) were Bravo Company guns. The fact that the Pueblo West classes are populated in large part by professionals means that this may be a clue.CONCLUSIONSThe fact that Filthy 14 ran so long and well can be attributed to the following:First is the design of the gun. Cpl. Eugene Stoner knew what he was doing.Second is the quality of this particular gun from Bravo Company. Paul Buffoni knows what he is doing.Third is the fact that we used Slip 2000 EWL which, based on past evaluations, keeps guns running long after other lubes have rolled craps. It kept the gun lubricated and made it easier for those rare times when we did clean it. Greg Conner knows what he is doing.Finally we had a great group of volunteers who took the time to aid us in this evaluation. Bravo Zulu, guys!(Pat Rogers is a retired Chief Warrant Officer of Marines and a retired NYPD Sergeant. Pat is the owner of E.A.G. Inc., which provides services to various governmental organizations. He can be reached at eag@10-8consulting.com)

[375ranger]

I read about this on "thegunzone.com" Someone on there did a rust test w/12 different lubes in about a 5 month period. All said and done, the slip2000 kicked butt on everything else, including the TW25B that I was using. Hmm, I might order some to try, in the cold weather I've been hunting in [15-25degrees], I'll try anything that won't flake, burn, or dry out.

[Heywood]

Or Tri-Flowhttp://www.triflowlu..._Lubricant.htmlHave used it for years and every day on the locks I service Super Lube is a good one as well and market a Teflon grease stainless slides just a dab and doneRemember almost dripping is not good just enough nothing more you don't want to attract and hold dirt or carbon

I've used Tri-Flow for years, just a little dab. I agree most people probably over lube their firearm. I'm definitely a minimalist in this area, just a light film is all that is needed. I'm going to have to try their dry lube.

[Mick17]

I'm not an AR guy (yet) but I heard from a reliable source about a lube called "M-Pro7 Gun Oil LPX". It's supposed to be good from -85F to 462F. There are more stats on their site...sounds like good stuff.

[Kephers]

Good thing of being an armorer was the unlimited amount of cleaning supplies. I used government issue CLP of which I got to keep several cases. I'm finally after being out for 6 years down to my last 3 bottles. Works wonders. I had ap brushes, rods, chamber brushes, q-tips, pipe cleaners, patches and everything. Was great. Still got some of this stuff. I use some wd40 on the barrel and clp for the inside of the barrel, and some remington lube on the bolt (remmy 700) before storing it. Clean it, wipe it all down and apply a fresh coat over all of the metal and moving parts, and a light coat for the stock. Cover the lenses of my scope and keep it enclosed in a case so its not exposed to any air or condensation in the air or room.