28 replies to this topic

[ShooterJohn]

Rights of a Non-Hunter in a Hunting Party? (From California Fish & Game Department)Question: What are the rules regarding having a non-hunter in my hunting party? Can that person possess a firearm for self defense? Can it be a rifle? In what ways can he participate in the hunt? If he has a hunting license but no tag, does this change anything? If he wants to hunt coyote, for which he does not need a tag, can he also sit in a stand with a deer hunter just to watch before moving to his hunting area? (David V.)Answer: The basic answers to your questions are that California has no general law regarding who can accompany you while you are “taking” fish or game (hunting). However, there are some restrictions relating to special circumstances and/or areas (special hunts, wildlife areas, game refuges, etc.).According to retired Department of Fish and Game (DFG) Capt. Phil Nelms, what California Fish and Game laws regulate is who is required to have a valid license in their possession while taking game. For the purposes of Fish and Game laws, the definition of “take” is “to hunt, pursue, catch, capture or kill or attempt to hunt, pursue, catch, capture or kill (fish and wildlife).”This means that while DFG laws would not expressly prohibit a non-hunter from carrying a firearm for self-defense, a non-licensed person who is carrying a firearm (especially a rifle) while in the company of an active hunter could be cited for taking wildlife without a license.Any person who accompanies you while you are taking game must have a license if their actions in any way assist you in your efforts. And if a tag is required for the wildlife being pursued, they must also carry their own tag. If the non-hunter does not have a valid license and tag in possession and behaves in any manner that is consistent with a person who is taking wildlife, he will likely be cited.If your guest wants to hunt coyote (which does not require a tag) and wants to sit in a deer stand with you just to watch before moving to his hunting area, he could be cited for being in possession of a firearm.

[BullsEye]

That is interesting to read. Thanks for the post John.

[mtn dog]

The way the questions were posed sounds like someone was trying to find excuses if a warden stopped them.I wonder how the answers would vary if the question was "Under what circumstances may an unlicensed person possess/carry a firearm on public lands?"I've heard that even if you are just hiking around and plinking at pine cones and old cans, you run the risk of a citation for hunting without a license - otherwise every clown poaching squirrels might use the plinking defense.

[Tradhistorian]

The only problem I have with this would be if someone varmint/small game hunting is sitting with someone hunting needing a tag, that they must also have a tag. There is no way to say the person is hunting for the game animal/tag along with the buddy, especially if the SG hunter has nothing except small game. In this country we aren't guilty till proven innocent and suspicion is not the same as guilt...now if the warden actually saw him taking a shot on game requiring a tag that's a different story... I can understand the non-hunter not being able to carry a gun without a license unless they have a permit to carry...can't you be arrested for carrying a gun in public anyways?Very interesting read thanks John

[Red Dog]

So what about this? You're hunting for a week with your friend. The first day, one guy gets his buck. For the rest of the trip, the first successful hunter can go out with the second guy but he should not have a firearm. Then he should stay right along side the other guy so he can not assist him by say scouting for him or kicking a deer up?

[MoBait]

Any person who accompanies you while you are taking game must have a license if their actions in any way assist you in your efforts.

Wouldn't someone giving you water technically be assisting you in your efforts, or someone carrying your backpack so you can drag a carcuss back to the truck.

[ShooterJohn]

I don't think so but then this came from the Fish & Game site so only they could really answer that.

[Old timer]

Ten to one you would get many different answers

[sertshark]

Great question about the guy who tagged out. So a guy gets his deer, then he cannot help his partner out the rest of the hunting trip. At least that is how I read it. I think if you were cited, you'd have a hard time beating it. If you are walking with your partner who has not tagged out yet, and you have a gun, you can be considered "hunting". That kind of stinks, because who wouldn't want to help his partner out after they got their buck first. I'd be curious what a game warden would say to that question.I bet if more people were ethical, and society wasn't so screwed up, game wardens could go by the spirit of the law, rather than the letter of the law. But nowadays, Law Enforcement Officers in general don't have the luxury to be lax. It is a dangerous world for one, and two, there are a lot of people out there breaking laws that don't care a lick about you or I. So LEO's aren't playing nice guy like they used to. Mayberry is long, long gone. Unfortunately.

[Longshot]

Good question.The law is tricky but the penal code did'nt mention "carry." Can't your buddy help out with the carry, some people might have a disability that needs assistance.As for your buddy being armed for self defense. have him carry a knife! "Who's king of the jungle you or the game."

[Haywood]

Would that require guides to also have a tag? Or does a guide license cover that? I've never hunted with a guide but I've seen on T.V. where a guide has a gun as well (backup on bear hunts etc.).

[Karl]

Great question about the guy who tagged out. So a guy gets his deer, then he cannot help his partner out the rest of the hunting trip. At least that is how I read it. I think if you were cited, you'd have a hard time beating it. If you are walking with your partner who has not tagged out yet, and you have a gun, you can be considered "hunting". That kind of stinks, because who wouldn't want to help his partner out after they got their buck first. I'd be curious what a game warden would say to that question.

The original question was a non hunter without a hunting license. If a guy gets his deer he is still a licensed hunter. He can carry a gun and hunt other game. Coyote comes to mind. Guide rules vary from state to state. As well as landowner licensing.

[GoldBarron]

I was in Montana last fall and read an article about a youth hunt where the State would allow the parents or whoever was with the child to carry what ever they wanted because the state didn not want to get into any second amendant issues. So why would it be a second amendment issue for Montana and not California.

[Karl]

I was in Montana last fall and read an article about a youth hunt where the State would allow the parents or whoever was with the child to carry what ever they wanted because the state didn not want to get into any second amendant issues. So why would it be a second amendment issue for Montana and not California.

Been in Kalifornia long?

[GoldBarron]

I have been in Kalifornia way too long. This is my 20th year and I still call Montana home.

[Two Shot Don]

California offers a special needs license for person with special needs. With this license they may be accompanied by another person to help them reclaim there game. You have to notify the F&G twenty four hours before you hunt and give them the location where you intend to hunt, so they can notify the agent in the area that you are hunting and you won't be bothered. You may shoot from a vehicle or ATV, as long as the ignition is turned off and you are not on a public way or other way open to vehiclur traffic, as defined in the DFG laws. This become very useful for squirrel hunting, wnen hunting from the back of a pick-up or shooting trailer attached to the vehicle.

I have the licnse. It is very easy to obtain if you have the special needs, documented by the approite person or persons. It took me about five minuets to get the application. I obtained the required documentaion and mailed it in. I received the approval letter in less than a week. I proceeded to the nearest location that issued license's and was issued the license. You only have to apply one time and you are in the system for ever. You will be issued the apporiate license each time you apply.

I hope this helps some people. More information may be found on the DFG web site, for anyone interested in obtaining this type of license.

[ShooterJohn]

The person assisting you can't shoot though, which might be a sticking point.

[mtn dog]

I'm happy to hear that there is an allowance that makes it possible for folks with medical limits and special needs to participate in the sport. I would especially hate to see any of our wounded warriors excluded.
That said, I just hope the standard is legitimate and not as easy to get as a medical marijuana card!

[Bisley]

That said, I just hope the standard is legitimate and not as easy to get as a medical marijuana card!

Or apparently a Homeland Security job
If I Were An Illegal Alien

[Two Shot Don]

I do believe the system is set up to make it available to the people, that are truly in need of the help. You have to show written proof of the special need, before the letter is sent authorizing the issuance of the license.

The person helping you can not hunt, unless they have proper license or tags for the species being hunted.

[ShooterJohn]

I should clarify I guess, that the helper cannot shoot from the same vehicle as the licensee.

[KNOCKED UP]

What is the problem?,
buy a darn hunting licence.
(problem solved)
I some times hunt with a person that is disabled, and he
can shoot from a vehicle, and his vehicle is set up to shoot from.
I have also set up a chair on the side of a hill for him to hunt from.
but he still has a hard time getting to the chair.
Tom

[Bisley]

What is the problem?,
buy a darn hunting licence.
(problem solved)

There's more to it than that Tom, you might also have to take a HSC class too. And I just don't know if being completely legal every time is worth that much effort . It's just way easier to skate the fine line and bitch about the DFG Officers instead

[Bkwoodshorsin]

The key word in the law is "persuit". If you are "looking for" game while in posession of a loaded firearm designed to take such game, you are hunting. In 99 percent of the lower 48, people don't carry rifles in the woods for "protection". In any case, the game warden will likely observe you for a period of time before he approaches you and will know by your actions if you are in persuit of game. If you are foolish enough to tread the gray area and get fined, then consider it a "stupid" tax.

[mtn dog]

... then consider it a "stupid" tax.

[clampdaddy]

I have wondered about this before. I have some friends that drew X12 tags and they asked if I'd go along with them to show them around. The problem is that if I'm going to miss some of my own season then I darn sure want to do some coyote hunting while I'm over there. Seems to me that if I were to get stopped by a warden and I was carrying a centerfire rifle, chances are he's going to assume that I'm a poacher.

I know that there are certain restrictions for special zones, like no dogs for bears in X12, but does anyone know if there are any restrictions about other types if hunting during a special zone hunt?

[Divernhunter]

And I thought this was going to be about non-hunters being with you in camp and such. Like the non-hunter has the right to cook and do the dishes. The non-hunter has the right to get firewood. etc.

 

Then when my ex-wife went with me one time and she asked (complained) about why do I even go hunt with you? I made the mistake about saying "I bring you for camp meat".............WRONG thing to say. She did not go with me for along time after that.

[sxshooter]

F&G wrote that Q&A for their leverage in any situation they come across. It's not law. It's their dissertation, rambling, opinion of the law, jibberish, whatever. But it does show their hand in what they might do.

 

The law says "taking of game" or something similar. That will have to get a legal definition established by at least one court ruling. If you really want to know, you'd have to research court rulings like paralegals do.

 

There are tons of examples of people assisting a hunter in "taking of game" that were not cited. Start with guides. Ok, you say they are licenced to do that...then how about the friends that hunt with their buddies on the special hunts for elk that are in the state magazines for F&G? They help glass, carry equipment, and help pack out. Someone glassing for animals? I can go into the forest and glass, go back and tell someone where the game is. I can be armed in the forest.

 

CA DFG is often an over zealous org. Example: My elderly friend and brother take a jeep into the mountains around Sequoia above Visalia. They haven't shot a deer in 30 - 40 yrs themselves and are out of shape. They are just trying to have some time together to remember old times. They park on the side of a fire road, get out and walk a short distance, then return to the jeep. When they arrive, my friend sets his 30-30 lever action rifle butt on the ground and leans the muzzle to the tire. DFG pulls up. 2 rangers get out and ask for their licences, they show them. Talk is "friendly". One ranger reaches for the rifle against the tire...friend says "careful, it's loaded". Ranger picks it up, opens the action and a shell comes out of the chamber. Ranger whips out his book and starts writing a citation for "loaded firearm in a vehicle". Friend debates with them. One ranger is sympathetic, other continues to write. It cost my friend a couple days off work to go from LA to Visalia court, he lost the case, probably because he didn't hire a local lawyer that was the friend of the judge, paid a $500 fine (20 yrs ago), and has a firearm misdemeanor on his record. DFG is a not necessarily a "public servant" IMO.

 

Bottom line, DFG is like any other law enforcement. They can cite you for whatever they want. If you are on their good side, you might not get cited for some small infraction. If you are on their bad side, you might get cited for something that didn'd violate a law and you have to prove it in court or pay the fine. DFG rangers know that you have to go to court in their district and often you are a long way from home.

[sxshooter]

I recall a story about a lawyer in Wisconsin or somewhere up there that was hunting ducks or geese or something.  A ranger stopped him and asked for his license.  He produced it.  Then he asked to see his birds and shotgun to check it for a 3 shot limit/plug. The lawyer refused and said it was an illegal search and that the ranger had no probable cause to suspect he was violating any laws.  Lawyer gets either a ride or citation, etc, etc..  Goes to court, wins on the probable cause issue.  Sues state in another case and wins an injunction against the state to cease searches of guns and bag limits unless probable cause exists...i.e.: more shots were seen fired, more game beyond limits were seen taken.

 

What was going on in that state as well as it continues in others, is that police sometimes couldn't obtain a warrant on their evidence to a judge, so they'd get a DFG officer to conduct a game search without a warrant and they'd "inadvertantly" find the other evidence of a crime.  How many times have you been "asked" to open your truck and cooler for a DFG ranger to search your guns and cooler?  How many times have you been asked to hand them your gun to search it for the ability to hold more than 3 shells?  What was the probable cause?  NADA.  DFG has operated outside of that law in CA and other states for as long as they have existed.

 

A DFG search was what was the catalyst of the Claude Dallas shooting the DFG rangers and subsequent manhunt.  The one ranger was thought to have entered his tent and discovered pelts while the other talked to Dallas.