20 replies to this topic

[yote man]

First off thank all of you for your previous advicem as of now my yellow lab is 7 mos old and she sits for as long as I need her too and has a hell of a nose and used to retrive too but latley she has been wanting just to play with the birds like whean we went out dove hunting she found the birds but just wanted to play w them is there any suggestions thanks

[tinhunter]

Did you force fetch the dog? If you did, did you do it with birds as well as bumpers? If you haven't force fetched the dog I highly recommend it. If you have force fetched the dog it sounds like something has started to slip with either hold, fetch, or both and you need to revisit that portion of the dog's training.

[handgun]

I have trained and surround myself with working german shepherds. BASIC training before they are 1 year old is fine but serious traing before that is not. They cannot even get their basic obedience title until they are at least 15 months old, this is for the Shutzhund sport not AKC. You could force a kid in eighth grade to get a job but they are just not fully developed menatlly or physically, I believe that it is the same for dogs. And I am sorry but if you "force" any training on a dog under 1 year old you are setting yourself up for failure. Train for manners, train for basic obedience but for the dog's sake let him / her be a puppy until they are fully mature. I have never trained a hunting dog but I have been around enough smart, well tempered and well adjusted dogs and an equal number of dogs that were ruined by their over anxious handlers to sincerely believe what I am saying.Just my two cents but you asked for opinions and I would appreciate feed back if you think I am out of line.

[tinhunter]

I agree that you should let the pup be a pup and not to try to get the dog to do more before he/she is ready, but you are misinterpreting the word force here in force fetch. It is not forcing the dog to do something that he/she isn't ready to do, but having them reliably make a retrieve to hand every time. The dog retrieves, or has in the past, and force fetching the dog is only reinforcing that the retrieve has to be made to hand every time and how to handle the bird in the process. I can see where you are coming from as a Shutzhund trainer delaying training of a dog since Shutzhund training requires a much higher level than most, if not all, gun dogs and even field trial dogs. There are higher levels of handling that a retriever can learn, but I probably wouldn't start them at this dogs age, but reliable retrieving, IMO, is easily achieved with a 7 month old since 6-8 months is the typical age to begin the FF process.It can be a lengthy process to FF a dog, so be prepared to spend some time on this. I also recommend getting a book or DVD that describes the process so you can effectively perform the process without mistakes.Here is a good discussion on another forum about FF; the third post down is by Evan G., who is a well known and respected retriever trainer, and he gives a good description of what FF means: Force fetch discussion

[Heywood]

7 mos is too young for force training, the dog is still an young adolescent, not even 10 human years. When you say "play with the birds", she doesn't pick them up? Keep working on the basics of obedience and retrieving w/ bumpers of all shapes and sizes on a lead. Keep sessions short and fun and full of praise. She'll come around. Remember, never give a command you can't enforce.

[handgun]

I will concede that I know very little about bird dog training and you seem to have experience. I agree that you cannot read enough or watch enough videos on your perticular sport, absorb what you think will work best for you and your dog. Nothing is as cool to watch as a well trained dog who lives to please their handler and you know it when you see it. Good luck and keep us posted!!!

[tinhunter]

7 mos is not too young to begin force training the dog. That is the average age most trainers take dogs and begin the process. The only concern I would have is whether or not the dog has all of its adult teeth; it should have them, but every dog gets them at different times. Having a dog force fetch a bumper with puppy teeth can be hard on the dog, but if she has her adult teeth then you should be able to perform it.If pressure is the concern for the age of the dog there are ways of force fetching the dog without pressure. "Motivational Training for the Field" is a good book to show you how without using pressure. Robert Milner at fetchpup.com uses non pressure techniques to train dogs as well.

[yote man]

Thank all of yall for your input I really do apprecate it this will be my 2 year duck hunting and first year w a dog and I live in yuba city but most of my friends belong to clubs and want my dog to be able to mark multiple birds and know hand singnals and all that stuff before they will let me bring her she is 7 mos old are u kiddin me I'm just glad she sits as long as she does but the retriving thing she will pick up the bird and shake it and throw it up in the air and catch it she just won't bring it back she actually just yesterday sat for me whail I threw the bumper and wait till I told her to retrive and she did it I am going to be huntin refuges sutter and gray lodge mainly so is trainin a dog for rice feilds and refuges the same or should she break whean I shoot I just. Started back to work this week so have absoultly 0 for a video or book and would really like some help and sorry. If I misspelld a lot I'm on my wifes black berry and the buttons are to small for my fat fingers thanks guys

[tinhunter]

The dog should not break when you shoot; that can be very dangerous for the dog. She should only go when you release her. There is no difference in training whether you are hunting rice, refuges or clubs. The dog should be steady, retrieve to hand and know hand signals for blind retrieves; if trained correctly she will perform this wherever you hunt. The only difference that I can think of is for hunting a refuge, the dog will need to sit on a platform to stay out of the water where in a blind or rice field the dog is out of the water during the hunt. The dog does need to learn to sit and stay on the platform until you release her. For your dogs safety it is important that you teach this since a dog sitting in the water is highly susceptible to hypothermia and can easily die even when it is not overly cold outside. I think it is a little ridiculous for your friends to not let you bring the dog before she knows any handling; she needs birds shot over her and time spent retrieving them to understand the basic rules of the game. I can understand not taking her until she can retrieve reliably to hand; that is a must. Since you are saying that she will go get the bird and pick it up, force fetching her to bring it to hand should not be too difficult to have done before waterfowl season.

[handgun]

tinhunter, what is a reasonable time frame for training a pup from start to finish? Again I know zero about hunting dogs but have trained high level dogs. To me yote man is expecting too much to think that his novice dog is even remotely ready to go into the field. yote man, I would guess that you may not have to purchase any videos or books if you have access to the internet. I know that there are a tremendous amount of dog training videos on youtube for just about any and every dog sport.

[tinhunter]

It all depends on your definition of finished. Most professional trainers are taking around 4 months to turn out a gun dog. This dog is by no means able to compete in a field trial competition or even be considered to attain Master Hunter status in a hunt test, but they will be able to go hunting, retrieve to hand and should, it depends on the dog, be able to understand basic hand casts (left, right, and back). This would qualify most dogs to be able to achieve a Junior Hunter status in a hunt test. If a trainer takes a dog at 6-8 months and needs 4 months on average to train a gun dog then around 10-14 months they are done. I don't think this dog is ready to hunt since she cannot retrieve to hand, but since she will stay steady and has a willingness to retrieve I think she is ready to be force fetched; this will ensure that she will retrieve to hand every time. Retrieving to hand and sitting steady and quiet is the most basic that is needed for a gun dog; I know a lot of hunters that their dogs only meet this requirement and they have hunted with those dogs for years. It all depends on what level you are wanting your dog to perform at; without seeing the dog I couldn't be sure, but hearing what the dog will do I think that she could possibly meet the basic needs (sit steady and quiet, and retrieve to hand) by waterfowl season. He has taken her on a dove hunt so he knows whether or not she will be steady at the shot. She will go after the bird, but won't bring it back; so I think that steadiness and retrieve to hand can be accomplished with a reasonable percentage of success with over a month to go until season opener. She may have to miss the opener and go a little later in the season, but I wouldn't hesitate to take her out with only the basic skills required; I would of course keep my expectations low. Will she be a great hunter at this point? Probably not, but with time in the field she will get better at those basic skills. She will most definitely need to be helped with blind retrieves by throwing something near the bird to give her direction or by actually going out towards the bird and commanding her to fetch. To me this is not a finished dog and we don't expect this dog to be one yet, but I don't see any reason to not get her exposed, if she meets the basic requirements, to hunting scenarios so she can start to see what her job is. For a gun dog, like humans, there is training and experience and the dog needs both to be successful. There are dogs that are professionally trained and do great on their first hunt and then there are dogs that are professionally trained and do less than stellar on their first hunt; this may be due to their pedigree rather than actual training. I have a friend that has a dog that was like that. He got her from a pro towards the end of last years season and hunted her for the remainder of the season. Even though she had been through the full gun dog training course, on her very first retrieve she brought back a decoy to my friend. She was sent again and brought back the bird, but she did fail and does make mistakes because she is still figuring out how her training now applies to the job at hand because hunting has a lot of different variables that the dog may not have seen or been trained for. Yote man's dog will be the same way, as most dogs are. I am not advocating stopping training during the season, in fact they should continue to work and progress especially on areas that he sees she is lacking in. If he does take her hunting then he should only expect as much from her as he has trained her for, which would be only the most basic of hunting skills. Having her out in the field sitting steady for long periods of time and making easy retrieves and being helped with harder retrieves is also training her for the job without having a formal training session. The dog I have now is like this as well. I adopted the dog at 16 mos of age at the end of February with zero training. I worked on basic obedience for a month with this dog and then got a professional trainer to help me train the dog to be a gun dog. We continued with obedience while we were also doing the gun dog training. It took me around 2.5-3 months to get the dog steady, sit on a platform, force fetched, whistle commands and to take 6 handed casting (this is left and right over, left and right back, and left and right angle back). We have worked a little on 8 handed casting which is left and right angle in towards me, but I have backed off of that since I don't expect to use it much. I took my dog for his first hunt this year on a dove hunt. He was steady at the shot, and fairly quiet. He did have trouble finding the birds in the heavy cover and he had some poor mouth habits, which he doesn't have in training, with the birds due to his excitement. We have gone back to working on hold techniques to try and fix his mouthing problems and more work finding bumpers and birds in heavy cover, but his mistakes has not deterred me from continuing to take him hunting. My dog is not making multiple marks as well; the only way a dog will learn to do this is to shoot multiple birds over the dog and send them for the birds. My dog will make multiple marks with bumpers during training, but I don't have good access to areas to shoot birds for my dog so he will have to learn to make multiple marks with birds in a hunting situation by being put in that situation. The birds he isn't able to mark I will direct him there with our handling, but learning to watch the sky for birds and follow the muzzle is something that will only come with time in the field. A combination of training and actual hunting will at some point converge and he will be a great asset in the field; until then I have to be patient and help him along. I see bringing a young dog with basic gun dog training and no experience hunting to be just like bringing a junior hunter along with only hunter safety and a license for their first hunt. I don't expect the kid to call well, or at all, be able to make good shots and they may possibly have to be reminded of safety, and correct actions in the field. The dog, just like the kid, is going to be your partner in the field and you need to be patient with them and try to help them along the best you can. You see areas that they need improvement on and you work on that and you also continue to further their training towards the ultimate goal at the end. We don't wait until a kid can call perfectly, make great shots, and know all about our quarries habits and habitat before we take them out into the field; and I don't think that we should require the same with our dogs. As long as a kid, and a dog, can meet their basic requirements of the hunt we should take them. Sure they will make mistakes, but they are still learning from them as they go and we continue training them. Now I can see waiting until the dog has had a high level of training if you are looking to run a field trial since it is a competition between dogs, but a hunt test can be run with only basic training to achieve Junior Hunter status and you can continue to train and run tests to achieve Senior Hunter and Master Hunter status since they are a test of whether or not the dog can meet the standards that are set for each level.There are those individuals out there, like yote man's friends, that don't want a dog in the field until it is fully trained and tested with birds and I can understand this. I on the other hand see my dog as a companion in all aspects of my life and not just a tool to aid me in my hunting pursuits. I want to have my dog with me all the time and I am willing to let them hunt with lesser amount of skills to help them learn and build a partnership over time. If my hunt is slightly compromised by the dog being able to only do the most basic of skills then so be it since we are having a good time together, learning, and forming a bond. Now since I am not a professional trainer I may be wrong; these are only my opinions about dog training and hunting with dogs. I also agree that there are a lot of videos on you tube that can be used to learn a lot without buying books and yote man should definitely look there.

[tinhunter]

I should add one thing to my last post. I am assuming with my previous posts that your dog has been exposed to water and is willing and enjoys swimming. If not, you are going to take longer to get her to basic hunting skills for the field. Swimming is kind of a necessary skill for a waterfowl dog and introductions to water can take awhile depending on the dog.

[Karl]

As usual a lot of great info. One thing I have experienced is that dove feathers come out very easy and some dogs don't like all the loose feathers. Especially the pups.Good Luck and keep us posted on your progress!Karl

[yote man]

Tin hunter Thanks so much for the advice I have found a few good videos on youtube as for water she loves it a lil too much but I have not yetr worked w her on forcefetching I have been getting my last few weeks of a zone hunting in I agree compleetly w you my dogs are part of the family it might sind kind of silly but they are in the back of the truck almost everywhere we go well I am going to work with her on force fetching tonight I try to work w her for at least an hour a day I think that's pretty good but tinhunter if you ever make it up to greylodge or sutter refuge this year I would love to hunt w you and pick ur brain a lil bit I have included a picture of teal my 7 month old lab  1.jpg   28.44K   16 downloads  ateal.jpg   13.3K   15 downloads

[tinhunter]

Nice looking dog. The dog cannot like the water too much. My lab is the same way. We were out dove hunting and while we were walking I don't think there was a puddle or slough that he wasn't out swimming in; if there is water near by he will be in it. I would be more than happy to hunt with you; I only hunted Grey Lodge and Sutter once each last year, so I don't know how much I will get up there this year; it is a 2 hour drive to Grey Lodge for me and having to be there 2 hours early makes for a tough night before the hunt. My partner and I had a terrible day at Grey Lodge, a whopping 1 bird each, and a good day at Sutter, 13 for the two of us. If you are going to force fetch the dog an hour is too long. When you start the dog receiving the bumper with pressure 4-6 times is probably optimal. Between each round of applying pressure and having the dog receive the bumper I like to walk the dog in a big circle around the yard and back to where we are siting for the force work; this will reset the dogs mind for doing it again rather than have her dislike it and continue to refuse and possibly shut down. It will continue this way until you get to force to pile. The initial introduction of pressure to the dog and having to accept the bumper can be a little traumatic for some dogs, so that is the reason for keeping it short. The pressure portion is probably the most important aspect of force fetch. The reliable retrieve and hold are important, but your main goal is setting the dog up to accept pressure and learn how to turn it off, not the retrieve portion; this will benefit you later on when you need to make corrections at a distance when you teach her handling. Since pressure in force fetch is not merely a motivator to make them retrieve and hold, but an actual goal you should see that it typically requires little pressure to get the dog to perform correctly. Seeing pressure solely as the motivator to perform can lead a lot of people to use too much when it is not needed. I can not stress enough Go slow through this process, if you apply too much pressure too fast you can cause the dog to not respond at all and you will have to back up quite a distance to regain ground lost. Once the dog understand pressure, how to turn it off, and that she can actually control whether it is on or off you will be surprised how quickly she can pick up force fetch work. Do a lot of homework on this portion since this is where most home trainers mess the dog up, by applying too much pressure too fast, and need to take it to a pro to fix. Good luck.

[tinhunter]

Here is a link to a guys facebook page that has a lot of retriever links: facebook pageThere is a lot of good articles on his site, especially about force fetching retrievers. Check it out.

[yote man]

Tin hunter Well the reuges are havin a 3 week delayed season opener up here due to rice harvest but I am goin to try to find out where I can hunt the bypass or somethin I halfto get more deks cause the last weekend of the season last year I let my buddy use my 2 doz deks and whean I went to get them the next month he had moved and haven't seen him scence but now I got to get some more not a big deal so anyways if u wanna go let me know and on a good weekend we can go as for my dog I'm gonna see how she picks up fetchin this season and if she needs it whean I get my tax return imma take. Her to a trainer to help w force fetchin

[tinhunter]

You can hunt the Yolo wildlife area that is in the bypass. I am still not sure about the delay in the refuges opening. I heard that as a rumor, but I haven't been able to validate that info. DFG shows the opening day being on time, but nothing about refuges not opening on time. None of the refuge websites mention anything about delaying the opener due to a late rice harvest. They harvested the rice late at the Yolo wildlife refuge last year, but they still opened on time. The rice area was closed until after the harvest, but the refuge was open. If you have a link to this info can you post it up? Otherwise I am still considering it an unsubstantiated rumor. If you feel you need a trainer to help you with your dog there are some trainers that have a trainer training program. This is where they show you what to work on and how to do it and you work with the dog and bring her back to get the next lesson. It is quite a bit cheaper than leaving the dog with the trainer for the entire duration of gun dog training since you are only paying for the sessions you use. I don't know of any trainers near you that do this, but with some looking around I am sure you could find one. I hope my last post didn't scare you off from training the dog yourself. That was not my intention since you can easily do it yourself.

[tinhunter]

I answered my own question about whether or not the refuges will be opening late. I just received my application for reservations in the mail today and it shows the full amount for days for the refuges and there are none that are opening late according to the application; as usual it appears to be just an internet rumor.

[yote man]

Ya I just went out to take a drive to grey lodge today and ran into so guys from fish and game and they said the rice commison wanted the dfg to close them but the dfg denied the request as for my dog no u did not scare me off of force fetching my dog I just really think I need to do my resheach before I start I am still planing on bringing her out every time I go just not gonna expect much only 32 more days till opener guys

[tinhunter]

The facebook link I put up has some good articles on force fetching the dog that explain it in good detail . It's quite easy; just take your time and pay attention to the dog she will tell you whether or not its working and you are doing it right.