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#1 Karl

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 02:43 PM

I see a lot of manufacturers claiming to make scopes for certain calibers. My question is how can they do that? How do they know that my 17hmr is going to shoot the same as any other 17hmr? I have seen rifles with successive serial #'s that could not shoot the same ammo with any consistency. Different ammo works differently in every gun. I think it is all marketing bs. It sounds like a ballistic calculator is the only way to really make your scope your own. What are your opinions?ThanksKarl
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#2 Airpower

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 04:24 PM

Marketing BS I think, I noticed that on some advertisement for .22 scopes - I guess it would work in a very crude sense but I would rather make a subjective adjustment myself based on practice with the rifle and scope.

#3 CA Desert Dog

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 06:54 PM

Amen brothers. That is why I like the free Hawke BDC ballistic program that is matched to their scopes and any load you shoot from your rifle, custom or over the counter. Like you said...people are shooting different bullet weights, powders, etc. There is no one size fits all for true accuracy. You have to plug in the numbers from your specific load and rifle for it to be accurate.
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#4 Brant

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 07:04 PM

Some of the better scopes are uncannily close. I am considering the new Nikon 223 BDC 3-12x out to 600 yrds on my AR. The elevation circles are simply based on bullet weight (55 gr) and velocity and then sighted in to a certain range (100 yds on the center) and the external ballistics do the rest once the bullet leaves the barrel. How the particluar ammo shoots in the gun doesn't matter once the scope is sighted unless it throws wild flyers inconsistently or something but nothing will fix that except different gun/ammo. Swarovski has it on some of their $2000 scopes via turrets by caliber or special reticles.

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#5 Desert Fox

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 09:34 PM

Just look at the ballistic table of any bullet manuals and compare the trajectory of majority of the centerfire cartridge. You'll find out that at 300 yards, their trajectories are almost identical. You'll start to notice the difference once it pass 400 yards and beyond. This is why I'm not sold to the BDC reticle. Don't get me wrong, BDC is effective! but to a certain degree. For extreme long range shooting however, they're useless.
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#6 CA Desert Dog

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 06:14 AM

First of all, define "extreme long range shooting". Practically speaking, I don't believe there are too many of us that would attempt to take an animal beyond 450-yards or so, for ethical as well as skill reasons. 1000-yard and beyond shooting is a specialty in itself and there are very few off-the-shelf market products that will suffice for that level of shooting.My references to the Hawke BDC program are targeted to the average hunter/shooter who's shots falls within the typical parameters we normally encounter.
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#7 Desert Fox

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:45 PM

I have nothing against BDC! As I said, it work but to a certain degree. Every scope manufacturers has BDC scope in their product line... nothing new there. Heck, I bought my first Simmon equipped with BDC in the early 80's. They're effective, as long as you limit your shot to no more than 500 yards. Nikons BDC, Burris Ballistic Plex, Leupold Bone & Crocket, and yes Hawks BDC works in the same principle. No design is more superior than the other either. It all boils down to the quality of the glass.

define "extreme long range shooting"

Well, you did! I only speak for my self though. My response to the post was to point out that although BDC works, it has it's limitations There are better system out there! especially if your want to extend your effective range a bit. With the level of accuracy of factory rifle these days, the quality of optics, the quality of bullets and component available to the shooters, the proliferation of super magnum rounds, and the affordability of a range finder, there's no reason why you wont be able to achieved the level of skill needed to make a long range kill. I've had several people who never shoot farther than 200 yards before, making kills at 5 to 600 yards now with regularity after learning my methods. As a matter of fact, they became an educated shooters and hunters as a result of it. But just like everything else in life, it also requires commitment to the sport. That means lot's of practice and expenditures on ammo. :smiley-innocent-halo-yellow:
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#8 clampdaddy

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 11:42 AM

I don't have much faith in turret adjustments for bullet drop compensation unless you are dealing with a really upper level scope but I have found that BDC recticles can be almost perfect even in the not so expencive scopes IF the shooter takes the time to find out what setting of the magnification power ring works best for a given cartridge. As the magnification goes up the distance between the dots or tick marks gets smaller, as magnification decreases the distance grows wider. So for instance, you are shooting you favorite load in your 30-06 at 400 yards and the bullets are striking lower than your 400 yard tick mark all you have to do is turn down the power of your scope a little and it'll bring your shots up to where they should be. Scribe a mark on the power ring and now you have a perfect and repeatable setting for 400 yards. You might have to do that again for 500 yards but it is still a more repeatable way of bullet drop (on low to mid level scopes) than messing with the turrets.
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#9 Desert Fox

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 03:06 PM

The problem with BDC reticle is that, you can not be precise. Too many variables get left-out. Animals are a moving target. You won't find them hanging around at exactly even number distances. Add the uphill, downhill into the mix and you're screwed. Shoot beyond 500 yards and you'll find your self guessing. The best and simple method in my opinion is the use of the turret dial (Sorry Clamp). If you can afford a MK4 Leupold, or a Nightforce, they're the best choice. If not, a VX or the older Vari-XIII with turret dial can be very precise. If your scope doesn't equipped with one, send it to Leupold to have an M1 turret installed for around 100 bucks. Get the average velocity of your cartridge and find someone with a ballistic program in their computer and have them print you a ballistic drop chart in 10 yard increment up to 1000 yards or to any distance you care to shoot. Verify the clicks on your scope whether it's a true MOA or inch per hundred yards (IPHY) Don't forget to input the actual environmental condition you will likely to encounter in your hunting area. Have this chart affix to your stock for easy access. Buy the best rangefinder you can afford and start practicing. The beauty of the system is that, if the range finder tells me that the distance of the target is 569 yards, and my ballistic chart recommend an 8.75 MOA dial up from my 100 yard zero (180 grain TSX, 300 Weatherby), Then all I have to do is crank the scope to number 8 in my dial (Leupold has 25 MOA/revolution of the dial, Nightforce has 10) and add an additional 3 more clicks, placed the crosshair where I want them and pull the trigger. Try finding that 569 yards in your BDC reticle. You won't! you can only guess. Well, guessing has no place in hunting! Now let's make it a bit more complicated by introducing the uphill down hill shot variable. Let say that the 569 yards distance is on a steep angle of 25 degrees downhill. How do you figure that out using the BDC reticle. Again you can guess. Well according to my chart, a 25 degree angle equals .90 cosine. With simple calculation using a pocket calculator I'll multiply 569 X.90 which equals to 512 yards which equates to 7.75 MOA dial up from my 100 yards zero. Simple ain't it! I had this same scenario played out on my first truly long range kill a few years back. The distance was at 638 yards, the angle was 22 degrees downhill shot. I'm shooting the 180 grain Hornady BTSP at around 2900 fps from my 300 Winchester Magnum. I was using a homemade angle finder made from a drafters plastic protractor. Now though, my rifle is equipped with angle cosine indicator and a bubble level. My ballistic chart is replaced with my pocket PC loaded with ballistic calculator. Ain't technology great!
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#10 Brant

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 03:53 PM

Good write-up. Each step in the technology is better than the last and nothing is perfect - yet.... They should be able to combine a good scope, the laser rangfinder with angle calculation, and the ballistics calculator into the scope system with an automatic adjusting reticle and get it awfully darn close with some sensors and entering some variables like wind, bullet parms, velocity, etc. It could even measure temp and pressure. Wind is a bit tricky and will always require some judgment down range. They should even be able to ditch the BDC and adjust the crosshairs automatically. The current Laser Rangefinder Scopes aren't quite there yet but a couple of more seasons ought to do it. If I had the money with the current technology now I would go with the Zeiss. They are a bit heavy but... ah to dream.http://www.zeiss.com...525754a00530821http://www.opticsbes...60-reticle.html

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#11 CA Desert Dog

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 04:22 PM

Desert Fox, I didn't think you were bagging on the Hawke BDC program and matched scopes. I have great respect for your knowledge, skill and the quality of your equipment (that I saw at our get together). However, you have to admit that you and your equipment are the exception to the general rule. Most of us do not have the cash, time, commitment and opportunity to develop our shooting skills to the extent that you have.I was speaking strictly in "everyman" terms. Us average guys that shoot, hunt and want good quality, affordable and reliable equipment that will do the job for us under typical, average circumstances. In perspective, I believe the BDC system is accurate and reliable. It certainly works for me and my customers. Like I said, I am not in your class of shooter. If I can shoot a 3" group at 425-yards, I am very pleased with that. Somebody like you, shooting top drawer equipment may shoot a 3/4" group or less at that distance. More power to ya. I don't think the majority of us can or desire to do that.Once again, the fun about a forum is that it brings together all levels of shooter and gear. Speaking for myself, I am well satisfied with my gear. I don't miss many animals and the majority of my shots are head shots, day and night. There is something for everybody here. Enjoy.
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#12 OrneryOlMofo357

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 04:45 PM

Ive been wondering.. if you have a BDC reticle, why would you need Target turrits? There are a few scopes out there like that. If you have BDC its supposed to help range, and hit the target. If you have Target turrits on top of that, doesent it just make it a more complicated system than a Crosshair and Target turrits? I have a Hilux scope, it has a BDC Reticle and target turrets. If you dont look at the turrits between stands, you will see that it has been bumped off by a few clicks. To me, this is not advantageous. Im reading here and learning.
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#13 Brant

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 05:57 PM

This is a complex subject. There are different kinds of BDC - even on the reticle. A SWAT buddy sent me this from an answer his armory posted online about a specific Nikon BDC scope about six months ago. i thought the last paragraph was the most significant."Each model can have it's own set of operating rules. And they can change year to year.Generally - the BDC that is eteched on a rectile is never set for full magnification. They are designed to only work at 10x. The idea - you range find at 10x and see where you are suspose t hit - then magnify in and take the shot.For this reason I usually avoid this etched type of BDC - because it is specifically designed for department use and has no parts to loose or mix up - important if you are a police armory and different people can be using the firearm. I prefer the BDC where the top turret is calibrated and labeled in yardage - since I reload - I have no problems loading rounds that will perfectly fit this turret.These scopes come in three general flavors. Etched mildot, Scopes with 2 horizontal lines for range finding, and standard crosshair with BDC. The two line and BDC usually have distance markings. Some standard cross hairs have just target turrets. The BDC with range markings are 100 times more easier and fun to use than the Target Turret. The Target Turrets generally have better control. You will want the BDC on a hunting rifle for quick changes in target distances - where as a Target Turret is better for a SWAT member taking a bad guy out or long range target work."

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#14 Desert Fox

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 06:17 PM

Red, believe me, I'm no better than any member of this forum. I'm a working guys just like most of the member here. What I have, and what I've learned however is the product of my never ending quest of making my self a better hunter and shooter. I'm very passionate about long range shooting and hunting. I love to introduce people into the sport and I don't mind sharing what I've learned. It is not hard, or complicated as one might think. Actually it's quite the contrary. It's not gonna cost you anymore than what you're spending right now. Okay, I lied about that. But the point is, you don't really need all that fancy equipment to start. On our next member get together, if we ever have another one, I will have a clinic strictly for long range shooting. I'll show everyone, who is interested how simple it really is.

Ive been wondering.. if you have a BDC reticle, why would you need Target turrits? There are a few scopes out there like that. If you have BDC its supposed to help range, and hit the target. If you have Target turrits on top of that, doesent it just make it a more complicated system than a Crosshair and Target turrits? I have a Hilux scope, it has a BDC Reticle and target turrets. If you dont look at the turrits between stands, you will see that it has been bumped off by a few clicks. To me, this is not advantageous. Im reading here and learning.

You can use either or. Actually it's advantageous to have both. You can also order BDC turret for your scope specific to your cartridge ballistic. Leupold, Kenton Industries and Huskemaw scope offered this services.
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#15 CA Desert Dog

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 07:59 PM

Wow! That would be really nice of you Foxy to share your knowledge and long range shooting experience. I am sure everybody would want to take advantage of that. I talked to a couple of friends that went to a weekend long range shooting class. They absolutely loved it and they were amazed at what they were able to do by the last day.
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#16 howah

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 08:40 AM

I had a burris ff2 b plex for 1 year and i liked it more than nikons bdc (perfered dash over circle) but i personally perfer dialing my shot using affordable components such as nikon buckmaster 6-18 plex with a weaver ring + bubble level, burris signature rings for additional travel. I used a cheap walmart plastic protractor as my angle reader. I limit myself from shooting anything further than what my nikon 800 can range maybe 500 yrds for deer. Whenever i get better, ill step up to a better rangefinder better yet go custom.

#17 Desert Fox

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 08:57 AM

The BDC with range markings are 100 times more easier and fun to use than the Target Turret. The Target Turrets generally have better control. You will want the BDC on a hunting rifle for quick changes in target distances - where as a Target Turret is better for a SWAT member taking a bad guy out or long range target work."

Not sure about the easier and fun part, but I agree with the rest of the statement. Both system can be very effective. It all boils down to which one you're most comfortable with.The best BDC system for hunting use that I've seen so far, which I don't mind using is the Huskemaw. It utilizes turret that are graduated in yards, calibrated specifically to your cartridge ballistic. It's so simple to use. No need to miss around with MOA or Mil conversion. The drawback is, you need multiple turrets if you plan to use different weight bullet or if you hunt in different areas. The turret ain't cheap... 100 bucks a popped. This is why, I like the flexibility and simplicity afforded by the mil or MOA turret. All you needed is a drop chart for every bullet that you use in your rifle. You can also have drop chart specific to your hunting area. Better yet, get a pocket PC with a ballistic program. You can have a library of all the pertinent info of every bullet you shoot in every single rifle you own, just a click away for immediate access. It can be carried in the field with you instead of having multiple drop chart. Together with Kestrel Wind Meter, you can input actual real time environmental data and the program will readjust your dope accordingly for precise shooting. Come to think of it, all these stuff can be had for less than a price of a brand new rifle.
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#18 Brant

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 09:24 AM

Yea I enjoy the target Turrets once in a while. "Whenever i get better, ill step up to a better rangefinder better yet go custom." I have the leupold RX-1000 TBR rangefinder and from practicing from a tree stand with my bow the angle calculations are right on the money for close bow ranges. I haven't rally tried it with the rifle yet at longer ranges. I like the Leupold because it has a bright red reticle. At $400 it's a good price for the features. http://www.leupold.c...er-rangefinder/

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#19 howah

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 10:03 AM

I had leica 1200 crf in mind. a cohunter has a leupold rx4 the 1500 model and i used it a few time. its just not what i wanted later when i get one. the view is covered with lots of icons. i want a simple range finder that give battery meter, reading in yards/meters and the cross hair. leupold is on the right track but would be better if able to input your own info like bullet type, bc, fps, zero range plus calculates barometer, altitude, temperature, angle (a wind meter would look weird on it i think) and at the end gives yardages/meters and moa/mil all done instantly. it'll be out of my budget with all those features.

#20 Brant

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 10:19 AM

My co-coyote hunter has a Leica 1200 and it is a very fine rangefinder. The leupold is packed with features for the price and a lot of info on the screen but I like that too. Either is great. We had a contest on his farm last winter putting a deer decoy out and I think we both got to about 600 yds for a deer sized object when I was researching my Leupold. The leupold is hard to beat as a best bang for the buck and it is good in low light but it's not the best one out there. I spent about 3 months looking for a rangefinder and tested them both in the stores (cabelas) and out in the field. It is in the archives. I had a hard time using the Nikons in low lighting.

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#21 clampdaddy

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 04:30 PM

......Well according to my chart, a 25 degree angle equals .90 cosine. With simple calculation using a pocket calculator I'll multiply 569 X.90 which equals to 512 yards which equates to 7.75 MOA dial up from my 100 yards zero. Simple ain't it! .......

Ummmmm, once I see horns I have a hard enough time remembering to take the safety off let alone dragging out a chart and a calculator. Don't forget the Kestrel wind speed thingy.
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#22 Karl

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 03:52 AM

Wow!Red, Desert Fox, Brant and the rest of you,Thank You for sharing your knowledge.This place keeps amazing me!Thanks again,Karl
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