94 replies to this topic

[du9207]

lots of good info on this thread

[Desert Fox]

Hmm...shot at 100, 150, 200. 2" bullseye. Things look pretty good (inside 4") @ 100, 150, fall apart at 200, probably me. Course it was hot, heat waves, little breeze, forgot to put ribbons up.

Is your rifle grouping well with that particular load? Even an MOA rifle should have no problem putting all the shot inside the 4" circle at 200 yards, if you do your part. You need to shoot more often. Practice, practice and practice some more!!!!!!!!!

[Single Six]

It was most likely me or the breeze. I was using cardboard boxes with junk thrown in them for weight and the targets stapled to them. I never really noticed much wind, but every once it a while one of my boxes would be tipped over. So either there was some intermittent gusty wind or some Range Gremlins.

[Desert Fox]

When zeroing a rifle or when you're trying to validate your trajectory, it is important to have a stable shooting platform to shoot with. This also include a stable target stand. The target should have a grid on it, to measure your drop and groups. Without it, you're just wasting your ammo.

[TonyS]

I am with desert fox on this one. I just sighted in my .223 with a 2x7 Redfield on it. I have the ballistic sight which makes is nice. I sighted it in at 100 yds and was getting 4 shot groups I can cover with a dime. Since the ballistic reticle needs to be sighted in a 200 yds I did that. What shocked me is when I put the 400 yd dot on a steel target at 400 I rang the gong. Fired two more shots at 400 yds and rang the gong each time.This rifle is more accurate then any other one I have ever shot. If I do my part it can definitely do its part.

[Single Six]

I have quite a bit of parallax movement @ 200 yds. Might end up upgrading the scope sooner than I thought. Or working on getting the same cheek weld every time.

[tawnoper]

All scopes have parallax. Most are set to be parallax free at 100 or 150yd. Some scopes have parallax adjustments. If your scope is fixed parallax or has a parallax adjustment that is adjusted properly, it shouldn't be a problem based on your original question.

[Single Six]

mine has no adjustment and has a lot of movement at 200. maybe that is why my groups are falling apart at 200. haven't paid much attention to cheek weld yet, will work on it and see what happens.

[tawnoper]

maybe that is why my groups are falling apart at 200.

Could be that...or a handful of other reasons. The further you go out expecting results, the more things get amplified. Wind becomes much more an issue the further you go out...along with other things.As DF pointed out, you need to minimize as much human error as possible when shooting groups. Stable platform and sandbags to rest your rifle on. Stable target stand. Known yardage. Hold the rifle the same everytime. Apply same shoulder pressure etc. If your target is getting blown over I wouldn't expect any real results. If I'm out hunting and just want a quick zero check I'll throw out a box at about a hundred, rest off something reasonably steady and shoot 3 shots. I'm not expecting cloverleafs...just making sure I'm in the hood.I believe Bushnell rifle scopes are parallex fixed at a 100. Leupold is at 150. A nicer scope might help you shoot a little better group at 200...but getting back to your original question...it will not matter much for coyote hunting.

[Single Six]

Well...I think I'm just about ready to whack some yotes. Just need a call. EDIT: NOTE - not necessarily@ 200 yet...200 yards, Bench, one bag, cheap Tula 55gr FMJ200 yards, one bag, prone, Speer GDSP 65grI think prone changed the position of my eye in relation to the scope = parallax change and/or the switch to 65 gr= more drop. Looking into getting some sort of cheek pad to help with consistent cheek weld.

[rude robert]

I have mine set for 300 yrds the only problem is i can't find any yotes lol

[tawnoper]

Your shotgun patterns pretty nice.

[Colin]

OK. that target looks like you were shooting at 200 yards. Not being a jerk, but that can not be considered a "group". Get rid of the cheap FMJ ammo and get some quality expanding ammo, and start back at 100 yards. Get your gun dialed in at 100 yards. At the very least you should be shooting 1 inch 3 shot groups at 100 yards. At 200 yards, theoretically, you should be shooting around 2 inch three shot groups, but even 3 inches could be considered acceptable. Funny thing...some of the ammo that I shoot out of my .223 will shoot better groups at 200 yards than at 100. Meaning, at 100 yards I might shoot 1.5 inch groups and the same ammo will shoot 1 inch at 200 yards. Something to do with some bullets stabilizing better beyond 100 yards. Keep in mind that when an animal gets in your sights, you will get very excited and you can expact your groups to grow substantially, because of that excitement. The more accurate your gun shoots, the smaller that variance. If I am shooting 1 inch groups off the bench, I expect to be shooting (at least) twice that size group with an animal in front of me in field shooting positions. Good luck with it....

[tawnoper]

Funny thing...some of the ammo that I shoot out of my .223 will shoot better groups at 200 yards than at 100. Meaning, at 100 yards I might shoot 1.5 inch groups and the same ammo will shoot 1 inch at 200 yards. Something to do with some bullets stabilizing better beyond 100 yards.

No offense meant, but that really doesn't make a lot of sense. While I'm sure you shot a group at 200 that measured better then your previous effort at 100 it doesn't necessarily mean that the group shrank as the range increased...it probably meant that you just shot a better group that time around at 200. A better way of being certain would be to shoot at least 3 groups at a 100 then 3 groups at 200 and take an average. If you have a rifle that consistently prints 1" or above groups at a hundred I wouldn't expect too much improvement. Groups will not shrink as ranges increase (meaning a dimensioned 2" group at 100 will turn into a dimensioned 1" group at 200)... but "sometimes" MOA will shrink. What you're refering to is when a bullet "goes to sleep". Sometimes a bullet will find the right velocity/spin rate and smooth out or "go to sleep. It usually happens with VLD bullets made for long distance shooting and at longer ranges. For example.. what may shoot MOA at a 100 may again improve to 3/4 MOA at 200 (which is 1.571"). Bigger group but tighter MOA.To the original poster...those are not groups. They are an example of how well you shoot prone at 200 yards with some crappy ammo. There has been some good info already given about dialing in your gun. DF mentioned stable platform....start with that. Eliminate as much human error as possible...and buy some good ammo.

[Colin]

None taken at all...I should have mentioned that these groups were averages of several groups shot. I always thought the same as what you are talking about, I was just shooting better at 200 yards than at 100....until, I read an article (I think it was posted here) that showed testing of stabilization of bullets. Some of these bullets showed considerable wobble past 100 yards, but then would stabilize beyond that 100 yard mark. I thought it was a fluke, also. Most of my groups grow beyond 100 yards, but some do not. Also, with these particular bullets shooting smaller groups at 200 yards rather than 100 yards print very similar groups at 300 yards as all the other stuff I have shot at 300 yards. I misplaced my shooting binder during a recent move, otherwise I could tell you which bullets they were. But this was a consistant thing. Not to say that many variables come into play, but it was interesting to say the least.

[Shoot-it]

Single six That has to be a joke your not expecting us to believe that's your hunting rounds.

[tawnoper]

None taken at all...I should have mentioned that these groups were averages of several groups shot. I always thought the same as what you are talking about, I was just shooting better at 200 yards than at 100....until, I read an article (I think it was posted here) that showed testing of stabilization of bullets. Some of these bullets showed considerable wobble past 100 yards, but then would stabilize beyond that 100 yard mark. I thought it was a fluke, also. Most of my groups grow beyond 100 yards, but some do not. Also, with these particular bullets shooting smaller groups at 200 yards rather than 100 yards print very similar groups at 300 yards as all the other stuff I have shot at 300 yards. I misplaced my shooting binder during a recent move, otherwise I could tell you which bullets they were. But this was a consistant thing. Not to say that many variables come into play, but it was interesting to say the least.

Just keep setting the target back further till you are getting one hole groups... haha, just kidden.

[Colin]

Ha....like I said, at 300 they open up and shoot comparable groups to the other bullets I've shot. Sometimes bullets do things that I am not smart enough to understand....

[Single Six]

Single six That has to be a joke your not expecting us to believe that's your hunting rounds.

Well, I have some HPs too...what's wrong with the SPs?

[Desert Fox]

Your shotgun patterns pretty nice.

SS, hope you don't mind a little humor from us oldfart here. Get a better quality ammo. I don't think the rifle likes that particular brand that you're using right now. Don't sacrifice accuracy for cheap. You're gonna end up spending more. That group you posted just doesn't cut it. And try to limit your group to 5 shot/target... easy to analyze your group that way.

[Braz]

Well, I have some HPs too...what's wrong with the SPs?

I think what he is refering to is the grouping. Any rifle that shoots a 7"x6" grouping at 200 yards needs to be taken to the gunsmith for some work. It just isn't going to get it. And even the 3"X3" group on the second target isn't too good. You need to find some different ammo or a different rifle if that is the best it will do.

[Single Six]

Pardon my frustration, a little humor is fine, more usable input would be really nice, and some of you old farts need to work on your reading comprehension and retention, at least as much a I need to work on my shooting. Shoot-it was referring to my rounds, not my rifle. I wish he'd been more clear. Either he was inferring that the SPs are not good for hunting, thought I was intending to hunt with the FMJs, or was inferring that the FMJs aren't that accurate...who knows? I can tell from hanging around here he's an accomplished hunter, but maybe not so much with words. So now it's the rifle, not the cheap scope with parallax @200, the goofy intermittent wind we always have at the range, or the newb shooter? Never mind it's a brand new 1" MOA Savage that does it's part when I do mine. I don't understand small group shooting. If you can't do it repeatably, it's not accuracy. That's why I shot an (almost) 20 shot group. Granted it might look better if I'd gone slower, let the barrel, cool, only shot 5, etc. but I didn't. I wanted to see what 20 shots looked like. 3"@200 might not be paper-punching benchrest competition nerd shooting, but if a coyote's kill zone is 4", it's 10 rounds in it and that's what counts. Now if I can do it for 20, or better yet, 30, which is the magic number for repeatability for statisticians, I think I'll be set. When I shot those, I had gone to the range @ 6am and shot 'til 2pm. I'd shot my Mosin Nagant, my .22 WMR Single Six, and my .357 @100 yards. By the time I got to the .223, it was 100*+, and I was hot and tired.I picked up a cleaning/aiming gun vise today, will try that. I've been shooting off bags, no bipod yet as I haven't made up my mind what to get yet (length-wise) and a guy said he'd give me his extra old one but hasn't yet...On another note, I've shot revolvers more than rifles, but this was my first time playing around at 100. This is my best 357 target for the day.

[Jerry]

SS,If I were experiencing the same thing you are, I would first find a range where parallax is gone (or as little as possible) regardless of the distance (as long as it is within reason of course). Then, shoot a few more groups and see if there is any improvement. If not, try a different ammo. If there is an improvement you could probably place the blame on the parallax issue. Then you might consider a different scope. If there is no improvement with the groups after trying different ammo and eliminating parallax, then you might want to contact a gunsmith to take a look at your rifle.Also, keep an eye on the various screws on the rifle, particularly the ring mounts on the dovetail, and the caps up top. There is always potential for a small thing like that to go unnoticed and cause frustration. Move in to 150 or 100, heck even less or anywhere in between. Eliminate that parallax as much as possible and try again. ALSO, practice maintaining the most consistent cheek weld as possible. Every little bit helps.Jerry

[fakawee]

Did you say you shot those "groups" from a bench at 200? Sorry SS but if your shooting those kind of "groups", please, please stick to calling your coyotes into the 50 yard ranges. You owe it to the coyote not to wound him or make him suffer an agonizingly slow death from a poor shot. Like others have mentioned, change your ammo to something your rifle will group well. Practice with the best ammo your rifle shoots even if it's expensive. No one said this sport was cheap and when it involves an animals death, we owe them a quick kill.When you practice shooting your coyote gun, you don't need 20 or 30 shots downrange as quickly as you can. You should always try to practice shooting your best shot first. You'll be lucky to get off 3 shots in a hunting situation. Not to mention having "coyote fever"! With those kinds of shots, you'll hit him in the foot.When I practice, I shoot 3 rounds standing at 100yds off hand, then 3 rounds kneeling at 100yds from shooting sticks, then 3 rounds sitting at 200yds from the sticks and finally 3 rounds prone using my backpack as a rest at 400-500yds. That's it! I don't like to waste ammo. I only shoot the 3 best shots I can at those positions.Change up SS-you'll become a better, more accurate hunter!

[Single Six]

If you're shooting off a bench with a bipod, what do you call that dealywhacker you can get that attaches to the rear sling mount? It has a threaded thumbscrew to adjust for elevation and folds up when not in use.Thanks

[Jerry]

A retractable monopod?

[Single Six]

Finally started my shootin' binder tonight...I'm takin' notes. One thing I forgot to mention is that I cheaped out when I bought my Savage and got the Edge which doesn't have the Accutrigger, and it's quite heavy - 5 or 6 lbs. I think. I'm going to work on that a bit, a trigger job on my SS helped a lot. If 3-4"@ 200 ain't good enough, what is? Nevermind, Colin previously answered. 2-3"

[Braz]

First off, you should be shooting your rifle at 100 yards to determine the accuracy of the rifle. That way the sight picture is very clear and you can do a better job. An inch at a hundred yards is a good grouping, which translates to 2" at 200 yards. Go back and double check all the screws on the gun and scope. If any are loose, apply loctite and tighten up. Shoot 5 shots, slowly, so the barrel doesn't heat up. Heat will throw the bullets in very stange ways. Remember, when you are hunting, you are shooting from a cold barrel, and rarely shooting more then 2, maybe 3 rounds. So take your time and try again. Let us know how it goes. And yea, get a trigger job ifyou can. Otherwise,that rifle should do a good job for you.

[fakawee]

If you're shooting off a bench with a bipod, what do you call that dealywhacker you can get that attaches to the rear sling mount? It has a threaded thumbscrew to adjust for elevation and folds up when not in use.Thanks

That's for bench shooter! You won't ever use one when hunting. That's just added weight you don't need. Use a sand bag or your off hand beneath the stock.

[Single Six]

That's for bench shooter! You won't ever use one when hunting. That's just added weight you don't need. Use a sand bag or your off hand beneath the stock.

Been shooting one bag and the off hand either under the tail of the stock or under the "pistol grip" part. It's been working OK @ 100, not so much at 200...I figure it folds up out of the way or removes when not in use, and it's lighter than a bag.However, I can see how 2 bags with the rifle nestled would be the most steady setup due to their weight and friction against the stock.