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#1 BC9696

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 11:06 AM

Just returned from the range and was astounded by what happened. At 15 yards I unloaded the #4 buckshot using a Carlson's Dead Coyote Choke Tube ($42.45 shipped). As you can see in the photo below, the result was ugly. Handed the gun to a former Marine/Rangemaster who used one in combat. Same thing. Played with the sight, no change. Removed it and shot w/ the stock bead. No difference. Took the barrel off, no bend. :WTF_1: Removed the Dead Coyote Choke and screwed in an Improved Cyl choke. Dead on at 25 yards. Lesson learned. Pattern your shotgun before using it in the field and the QC Dept. at Carlson is dismal. If youíre using a Carlson DCC and havenít patterned your gun, I highly recommend you do this. The results may be ugly. (Black circle is 3" in diameter)Attached File  1.jpg   7.63KB   23 downloads

#2 BC9696

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 11:08 AM

Stock Imp Cyl choke. (Black circle is 3" in diameter)Attached File  2.jpg   12.81KB   19 downloads

#3 airman

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 11:23 AM

JUST A BIT OUTSIDE.. That tube paterns like dog poop! It's a good thing you did pattern it!

#4 dabob

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 11:30 AM

Call Carlson's, they should replace that choke for you.
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#5 BC9696

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 11:51 AM

Call Carlson's, they should replace that choke for you.

I notified Carlson's and Predator Sniper Styx Online Store (where I purchased it from). My 1st concern is that those who have bought a choke and not patterned it may be inadvertently wounding critters and the lesson to be learned from this is that you MUST PATTERN YOUR SHOTGUN. It is not my intention to injure Carlson but since so many people here recemmended this Dead Coyote Choke...I felt it important for them to know what I saw.

#6 Soreloser

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 12:02 PM

The same choke placed in a different gun will more than likely produce different results.The same choke used with different ammo will more than likely produce different results.The same choke used with the same ammo that uses a different wad will likely produce different results.Point is, nothing is exact and you have to take all things into consideration when patterning a shotgun. Ammo types, gun types, choke types, etc. will all affect patterning in different ways. It sounds crazy, but the type of wad that we use for reloading our own rounds for competition trap and skeet, makes a difference in how the gun patterns.The Dead Coyote Choke is obviously not the choke to be using in your particular shotgun, but I would lean toward the fact that there isn't anything wrong with that particular choke tube. As you already did, just try another one until you find what works best for your gun.What gun did you buy it for? I am certain will be able to sell it used in a matter of minutes.I do have a question about your use of adjusting the sights???? How did it come about that you could not get the pattern to move by adjusting a sight, which will in turn adjust your point of aim and impact? In theory it is pretty much impossible to adjust a sight and not move your point of impact..
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#7 tawnoper

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 12:34 PM

What Tim said...I'm also guessing that you were shooting at 15 and 25 yards per your targets, not the 15-25' per the post.While patterning a shotgun does let you know where the center of the pattern is...it's mainly to find out how your gun "patterns" a particular choke/load combo. If you get one that clusters nice and tight but maybe shoots to the right (like yours) you can adjust POI with sights.Pretty common to have a shotgun not center the pattern exactly where you were aiming. I still don't get how you changed the sights all around yet it didn't change the center of the pattern.
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#8 BC9696

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 12:51 PM

The same choke placed in a different gun will more than likely produce different results.The same choke used with different ammo will more than likely produce different results.The same choke used with the same ammo that uses a different wad will likely produce different results.Point is, nothing is exact and you have to take all things into consideration when patterning a shotgun. Ammo types, gun types, choke types, etc. will all affect patterning in different ways. It sounds crazy, but the type of wad that we use for reloading our own rounds for competition trap and skeet, makes a difference in how the gun patterns.The Dead Coyote Choke is obviously not the choke to be using in your particular shotgun, but I would lean toward the fact that there isn't anything wrong with that particular choke tube. As you already did, just try another one until you find what works best for your gun.What gun did you buy it for? I am certain will be able to sell it used in a matter of minutes.I do have a question about your use of adjusting the sights???? How did it come about that you could not get the pattern to move by adjusting a sight, which will in turn adjust your point of aim and impact? In theory it is pretty much impossible to adjust a sight and not move your point of impact..

Shot 4 different kinds of ammo (3", 2 3/4" in 00, #4 buck and #9 birdshot-Federal & Remington) and they all shot the same. Way right at 15 yards. (thanks for the correction, i corrected my original post)Pushed the sight as far as it would go (see pick) before removing it entirely. Not much difference.The DCC was in my brand new & unfired Winchester 1300 Speedpump. All the different shells performed well with the stock Imp Cyl choke. I don't know enough about aftermarket chokes to understand why the DCC won't shoot straight when the stock models do. If you say that's normal then my point is confirmed. You MUST PATTERN YOUR SHOTGUN. :lol: The results may be unexpectedly ugly. That's all I'm saying.

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#9 tawnoper

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 02:40 PM

Pushed the sight as far as it would go (see pick) before removing it entirely. Not much difference.

Do you have a rear sight on it? You may want to try out the modified choke if you have one, sometimes they work well with #4 Buck.
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#10 ShooterJohn

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 03:23 PM

Are you sure you are keeping your head down? It's an easy fault and many don't notice it.I agree with ED and Tim but look hear too. http://www.fieldands....com/node/57066Sometimes a scope works well on a shotgun and helps you to move a good pattern where you want it.

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#11 BC9696

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 03:40 PM

Not a head down issue. Like I said, I let a 3 tour Marine try it and his pattern matched mine. We were both only 15 yards from the target. Once we removed the Dead Coyote choke the problem vanished. Gun shot straight at 25 yards w/ multiple shells of varying sizes and loads. I don't wanna scope it...hate those on a shotgun. Next pattern will be outdoors at 50 yards using the stock Modified and Full chokes that came with the gun.

#12 Soreloser

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 04:46 PM

Shotgunning coyotes is very much mostly wing shooting, since very few of your targets are going to be standing still.Unless you are VERY, VERY familiar with your gun, a good wingshooter and would be able to mount, swing and shoot without noticing them, then I would not recommend a scope or fixed sights of anykind.Just try the different chokes and see which one patterns the best. Like I said, the choke should be easy to sell to someone else with a Winchester. Just post it around the various boards or Ebay it.
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#13 clampdaddy

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 07:20 PM

I'd try the original full choke that came with your gun. It might just surprise you.
My guns are mine, they aren't for sale, and I only give guns to people that I really like. So I guess the government is **** out of luck.

#14 BC9696

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 10:28 PM

I'd try the original full choke that came with your gun. It might just surprise you.

I agree...that's next. I do not feel right trying to sell the Dead Coyote choke to someone else primarily because I believe it to be defective and I don't wanna screw anyone. Perhaps they will exchange it for a straight shooting tube. Given the degree of error, I have to believe this is a defective unit.

#15 4RHUNTS

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Posted 05 August 2009 - 10:06 AM

See you should have bought an 870....they don't have bent barrels like those Winchesters do......... :pot: :roflmao3[1]: :crazy: :rofl2:

#16 BC9696

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Posted 05 August 2009 - 11:47 AM

You a funny guy! LOLShane Carlson wrote me and basicly said because I posted this 'slanderous" thread I am outta luck and that if I had not posted anything he "...could have fixed the situation." I understand Shane's anger and as a business owner myself, recognize it is sometimes hard to accept the public access and unfiltered information and opinion the internet provides. We long for the days when opinions had limited spheres of influence...now they are worldwide.I am comfortable with my decision to post my DCC experience because I submitted this product review not to injure Carlson but rather, to make the point regarding ethical hunting practices and the need to pattern your shotgun and check your choke. Had I gone into the field w/ my Carlson Dead Coyote choke without patterning it, (as people often do) there wouldn't be any dead coyotes, just wounded ones. If you own this product and have not tested the pattern, you may wanna do so. I still won't resell the choke cuz I don't wanna pawn off my problems on others.

#17 Moe

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Posted 05 August 2009 - 12:29 PM

"the QC Dept. at Carlson is dismal."Maybe this is what he's PO'd about.Either way there's no way he shouldn't fix the problem if it really is their problem. Especially now since a lot of people are watching. They should at least look at it and make it right if they sold you something defective. I agree that you should've contacted them first rather than air it out on line but even so money has changed hands and you're still a customer.I make a point of buying quality shotguns and rather than screw around with the beads I make the gun fit me properly. I will say that I bought a Benelli Super Black Eagle about 12 years ago and none of the chokes that came with it shot very good. Patterns were consistently poor and the gun shot low no matter what you ran through it. I spoke to Benelli USA and they said they wouldn't even look at it so I sold it at a loss to a guy who wanted to buy a "tactical" barrel for it, whatever that is, and didn't care about what was on it at the time. I've bought my last Benelli. I've owned 3 Perazzis, a Comp 1 single barrel, an MX8 O/U and an MX8 Combination that I won the money to buy it at the Mid Winter Chain shoot at the Mint in Las Vegas. I thought because Benelli was Italian made like my Perazzis and more expensive than Browning, Winchester or Remington I was getting some serious quality. I wasn't.
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#18 clampdaddy

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Posted 05 August 2009 - 02:20 PM

I notified Carlson's and Predator Sniper Styx Online Store (where I purchased it from). My 1st concern is that those who have bought a choke and not patterned it may be inadvertently wounding critters and the lesson to be learned from this is that you MUST PATTERN YOUR SHOTGUN. It is not my intention to injure Carlson but since so many people here recemmended this Dead Coyote Choke...I felt it important for them to know what I saw.

How can they say that you made a slanderous statement? In the above posting you plainly stated that your post wasn't intended to do that. I'd say their course of actions did more harm to their good name than anything you might have said. It is understandable that occasionaly a product might make it out the door and not be up to snuff, it happens. But for the producer to not make it right is simply inexcusable.Your tube could still work in someone elses gun. The threads in another gun may be clocked a quarter turn in either direction which would put the pattern a tad high or low. Either way would be alot easier to deal with. Is that an invector or invector+ tube?
My guns are mine, they aren't for sale, and I only give guns to people that I really like. So I guess the government is **** out of luck.

#19 BC9696

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Posted 05 August 2009 - 02:56 PM

As the owner of multiple product & service-based businesses, it has always been my policy to treat customers as if they are always right...even when they aren't. Even problem customers are a source of marketing...whether it is good or bad marketing depends on how we handle them. I have witnessed cases where a vendor was unfairly bashed on a fishing message board and the owner posted a thorough explanation and offered a free upgrade to any and every customer who had purchased the product in question. Result...everyone recognized his firm's excellent customer care and committment. He won. I honestly don't think I am a bad customer, I have read a number of posts here about shotgunning and misses and the need for patterning. Carlson apparently only saw the "attack" of his product rather than the bigger issue of ethical hunting. I suspect he will be posting soon. It is his correspondence to me that cost him any future business from myself and assured I will have something negative to say whenever his company comes up in conversation. Like i said, "The customer is always right...even when he's not." That's my approach anyway.

#20 BC9696

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Posted 05 August 2009 - 03:45 PM

There are four Rangemasters at On Target Shooting Range who will attest to the facts I posted. :smiley-funny-post-sign: He's lucky I was not intent upon defaming him, if I had been it would have been obvious. After a sagacious and strongly worded Thesarus-driven barrage from my Buttkicker 9.0 word processing program he would need ointment and one of those inflatable donuts. :lol:As for Clampdaddy's question about it being an invector or invector+ tube...I can't say. Nothing on the packaging. i even had to call to inquire about the constriction because that info is deliberately left off the packaging as well. Their customer service guy said they didn't wanna advertise the .660 constriction to their competitors. Is there a way to tell just by looking at the tube?

#21 atwoodflash

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Posted 05 August 2009 - 05:09 PM

This will be my only post as this forum as I understand this is not the place for this kind of thread but Mr. Carter has not provided the whole story to you gentlemen. First he NEVER asked our company to exchange, replace, or credit him for his product. Actually in a response to him I told him we back our product 100% to everyone even him! I wanted to post our e-mail exchange for you all to judge for yourself but Mr. Carter explained to me that I better not do that without consulting a lawyer (what does that tell you) This gentleman received a product that was not satisfactory, I had no problem with him posting his pattern results, but when he said and I quote "the QC department is dismal" I took this as a slanderous comment. There is no fact involved in this statement in which Mr. Carter says there is. How can there be? No-one has any idea what we do as far as QC. In fact we have a very low return/reject ratio. My e-mails to him were not deragotory or insulting. I just expressed to him that "I was dissapointed" (exact words) in the post regarding the choke and I wished he would have contacted us to make this right with him. He then expressed to me that because of my e-mail he was going to get his money back, after further investigation he had already asked for his money back before we had any kind of contact. HE NEVER ASKED US TO DO ANYTHING! He only gave us a link to this site so we could see what he posted. No company has zero defects or problems and as a business man he should have understood that and given us the chance to make things right. We are humans and make mistakes. You can believe whatever you want, but we have a great reputation ask anyone who has ever delt with us. This one guy who cannot come to terms that we had a product and was not satisfactory did not even give us a chance to do anything to compensate him. Like I said I would like to post our e-mail correspondence so you could judge for yourself what EXACTLY went on but this was stopped by Mr. Carter not I. I appreciate the opportnity to post my side of the story, like I said I do not plan on wasting anyone else's time with this matter, but only wanted the chance to provide our side of the story. If anyone including Mr. Carter wish to discuss this situation or anything other than this regarding shotguns feel free to messgae or call me at 785-626-3700. BTW this invitation was extended to MR Carter as well but as he would not call or give me the opportunity to speak with him over the phone we only had e-mail correspondence.Thank You,Shane Carlson

#22 BC9696

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Posted 05 August 2009 - 06:01 PM

Dear Shane,The issue of legality arises from the wholesale posting of private emails without consent. I hereby grant you permission to post (chronologically) the email exchanges we had today so there is complete transparency here. Just don't alter or edit any of it...or I will correct it. Let everyone see the nature and tone of your superior customer care. Go ahead. Or, if you are too busy, just grant me permission to post em here. For the record, my request was made directly to the dealer I purchased it from. I followed proper channels. I contacted the dealer who processed my credit card. If you buy a car and it blows up the next day, do you call the Mfr or the dealer who sold it to you?For the record (and comparison) this is how I would have responded if I owned your company:Dear Bruce,I understand your frustration and in fact, share it. Every once in a while (approximately 1% of the time) we have a bad unit slip thru our door. We want to assure you that your complete satisfaction is our only concern and are replacing the faulty tube immediately (insert tracking info here). We agree with you on the issue of shotgun patterning and it's role in ethical hunting however, I must respectfully disagree with your statement regarding our quality control. We strive for 100% but are human and in reality acheive 99%. I regret you are that one in a hundred customer and hope to make you happy. Thank you for your purchase, please let me know how the replacement choke works out.Sincerely,name & titleHad I received such a letter from you Shane, my praise for your superior customer care would have been shouted from the cyber rooftops. I do admit and apologize for labeling your QC dept as "dismal"...that was a poor knee-jerk reaction. I do think my suggestion to test fire each tube before packaging to ensure QC is a good one though.

#23 clampdaddy

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Posted 05 August 2009 - 08:57 PM

As for Clampdaddy's question about it being an invector or invector+ tube...I can't say. Nothing on the packaging. i even had to call to inquire about the constriction because that info is deliberately left off the packaging as well. Their customer service guy said they didn't wanna advertise the .660 constriction to their competitors. Is there a way to tell just by looking at the tube?

I'm not 100% sure on this but if the threads are right near the muzzle it is a win-choke. If the threads are at the base of the choke it is an invector or invector plus. If it is in fact an invector plus it should be stamped on the barrel by the gauge and chamber length.
My guns are mine, they aren't for sale, and I only give guns to people that I really like. So I guess the government is **** out of luck.

#24 lilwes278

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Posted 05 August 2009 - 09:36 PM

If i can throw in my :yikes[1]:...First, Shane's post was a difficult read at best. A little effort in spelling, punctuation, and grammar goes a long ways when engaged in a written dispute. Appearing uneducated can (and usually does) discredit any positive arguments being made.Second, I think the idea of test firing each individual choke before packaging is an unrealistic idea. It would require considerable time and ammunition plus additional rifles and employees which would drive their costs up substantially. I would hate to see any further inflation of their retail prices.And third, I'm interested to know the outcome of this conflict as we may have to add Carlson's name right alongside Barnes on the "blacklist" of manufacturers to avoid. Until then...:yikes[1]:
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#25 Yodel Dog

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Posted 05 August 2009 - 09:59 PM

... Bell & Carlson's...

I believe Carlson's refers to Carlson's (Choke Tubes), not Bell & Carlson.

#26 dabob

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Posted 05 August 2009 - 10:29 PM

I have two Carlson's Dead Coyote chokes and eight of the Carlson's Extended Sporting Clays chokes for my Remington hunting shotguns. I have never had a problem with any of them. At the Predator Expo in Kansas, at the Carlson's booth I got a Carlson's Dead Coyote Choke tube and a Carlson's hat for $20.00 I think that was a pretty good deal.
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#27 tawnoper

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 06:19 AM

Like i said, "The customer is always right...even when he's not."

This pretty much sums up this whole thread. Especially the end.
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#28 BC9696

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 07:57 AM

What a difference a day makes. I awoke to find a well written cyber olive branch in my email wherein Shane has won me over. We've reached an agreement and we're chalking it up to us having one bad day with each of us making poor decsisions that we can and will learn from. A replacement choke will be sent and we're now singing Cumbaya.

#29 BC9696

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 08:05 AM

If i can throw in my :yikes[1]:...Second, I think the idea of test firing each individual choke before packaging is an unrealistic idea. It would require considerable time and ammunition plus additional rifles and employees which would drive the prices up substantially. They seem to be fairly proud of their products already so I would hate to see any further inflation of their prices.

No argument there. Actually I envisioned a simpler approach. Get some barrels and rig them up to a high pressure line with a small tissue pouch of shot to test fire the chokes. Safe, cheap, clean and reusable. Doesn't even need to match the velocity of a regular shell, just enough pressure to determine it's shooting straight. Then again, I am not in this business and don't know :yikes[1]: about it. Might be a :) idea.

#30 ShooterJohn

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 08:38 AM

I'm glad to hear this was just a misunderstanding. I personally called and spoke with Shane Carlson this morning and we had a very friendly and meaningful exchange. He's all about customer service and helping to get a customer squared away should they have any sort of problem. As I told him a great number of our membership and myself have choke tubes manufactured by Carlson and are very happy. He also stated he thought this was a great forum with a exceptional membership. So I give Shane Carlson and his company a BIG thumbs up!

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