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Gun Locks and the Law


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#1 Mayhem

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 10:16 AM

I've been PTPing some rifles and hand gun in a trade. The person I'm trading with prefers to use Ronning Arms in Modesto whom I distrust and dislike.I have made firearms purchases in the past. I've avoided purchasing useless cheap over priced gunlocks in the past becuase I have a Gun Safe.Now I recently got told (By Ronning Arms) I have to purchase a gun lock (or show a recent receipt for a gunlock) with ever Firearms Purchase regardless of whether I have a Gun safe or not. and regardless of whether I'm purchasing a Handgun or longgun, as per BATFE (Not Ca DOJ who allows the gun safe affidavid). When I look up the requirements on BATFE I find that the gun lock requirement is only on Handguns and says nothing about purchasing a lock with long guns.This would typically of Ronning spreading B.S. To sell a 5 buck gun lock that they are way overstock on or Just being clueless.Does any one know if anything has been changed that would require me to purchase gun locks with the purchase or PTP of longguns?TITLE 18 - PART I - CHAPTER 44 - § 922(z) Secure Gun Storage or Safety Device.—(1) In general.— Except as provided under paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person licensed under this chapter, unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device (as defined in section 921 (a)(34)) for that handgun.(34) The term “secure gun storage or safety device” means—(A) a device that, when installed on a firearm, is designed to prevent the firearm from being operated without first deactivating the device;(:signlol2iu: a device incorporated into the design of the firearm that is designed to prevent the operation of the firearm by anyone not having access to the device; orŠ a safe, gun safe, gun case, lock box, or other device that is designed to be or can be used to store a firearm and that is designed to be unlocked only by means of a key, a combination, or other similar means.(A3): Under 18 U.S.C. § 922(z), a secure gun storage or safety device is required with the sale, delivery, or transfer of a handgun to a nonlicensee. This provision does not apply to the transfer of handguns to any Federal firearms licensee, nor does it apply to the following:1. The handgun’s manufacture for, transfer to, or possession by, the United States, a department or agency of the United States, a State, or a department, agency, or political subdivision of a State; or2. The handgun’s transfer to, or possession by, a law enforcement officer employed by an entity referred to in paragraph (a) for law enforcement purposes (whether on or off duty);2. The handgun’s transfer to, or possession by, a rail police officer employed by a rail carrier and certified or commissioned as a police officer under the laws of a State for purposes of law enforcement (whether on or off duty);3. The transfer of a handgun listed as a curio or relic to any person by the Attorney General pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(13); or4. The transfer of a handgun to any person for which a secure gun storage or safety device is temporarily unavailable for the reasons described in the exceptions stated in 18 U.S.C. 923(e), if the licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer delivers to the transferee within 10 calendar days from the date of the delivery of the handgun to the transferee, a secure gun storage or safety device for the handgun.I'm probably going to be calling B.S. on Ronning when I go to pick up my firearms (Long Guns).

#2 CoyoteHuntress

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 10:33 AM

Id take the rules with you... Isnt there a law against him forcing you to buy stuff you DONT NEED? Also the last three long guns I bought had a cable lock in the box that came with it for free..

#3 Camoghost

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 10:42 AM

The only thing I have ever been asked is "do I own a gun safe at home".. They want to know the make of the safe and modle name and they put right on the DOJ form.. Then they let me walk out with my gun after my 10 days are up.. Turners just gave me a lock when I picked up my guns, both times.. These were all long guns.. Something stinks with this guy you don't trust..

#4 Mayhem

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 11:19 AM

The handgun law is Fed not state and only applies to handguns. State requires Gunlocks with any gun unless you own a CA DOJ approved Safe. Fed supersedes State.From what I understand from talking to people. Barnwood in Ripon, Ronning in Modesto, and Alquist Arms in Turlock all got in trouble for gunlocks. Some of them will tell you it's a store policy. Ronning tells people it's the LAW even with Long Guns and a DOJ Approved Gun Safe. I just Called and confirmed this with Chris at Ronning. He told me it was the law, I quoted code and he told me thats what his boss told him. I informed him He may want to talk with his boss and have him double check the law.Me personally I have no problem Calling CA DOJ and BATFE and Inform them that a gun shop is misinforming people about the law. I also have no problem waisting the time and money starting a Small Claims case over 2 $5 locks.I'l print the law and bring it with me. I'm not sure if they can get in any real trouble for what they are doing the have the wright to say "It's store policy and enforce it" However they told me it's the "Law" and it's not. If they told me it was store policy I coulda used it as an excuse to take my business elsewhere regardless of what my friend wanted.However by reporting it I could get DOJ and BATFE to give them a phohne call and rattle thier cage. I would also have the wright to take them to small claims court.Right now I have 2 options.I can sell myself 2 gun locks that I have already purchased with other guns for $.01 print up my receipt and take it with me when I go pick up my firearms. This also allows me to right off the locks as a Loss. My way of sticking it to the man.or I can print the law take it with me and force the issue. If ronning still persist I can call DOJ and BATFE. raise hell then, purchase the 2 gun locks and take ronning to court for the embarrassment factor alone.BTW it was someone at ronning who told me that Winchester Black Talon ammunition was banned because it was armor piercing ammo. If any one remembers Black talons where a black colored standard hallow point that opened up like a claw after impact. The Anti's where calling them Torture rounds and even got a few anti gun doctors to speak out against the bullets because removing it from a perp could cause their surgical gloves to tear Increasing infection. Colin Ferguson used black talons in the 93 Long Island Shooting rampage and due to political pressure and law suites winchester pulled the black talons off the civilian market and by 2000 they were gone completely. Winchester produced the Ranger SXT which is uncolored black talon with a less pointed Petal. Infact the running joke was SXT stood for Same eXact Thing. Black talons are not armor Piercing, they were never banned, and are not Illegal to have.

#5 Jeff

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 11:58 AM

Or you could just buy the locks and not try to cause even more trouble for a gunstore. We need to not be against them. I have a safe and have never been requested to buy a lock unless I've purchased the firearm at Sportsman's Warehouse. They are the ONLY ones who have forced me into a lock (both times), and they said that i could even return it if I wanted. Shoot, I'll mail you two gunlocks and you can mail 'em back when the purchase is complete.EDIT: I do understand your complaint, and it's valid...but choose the high road since they haven't.

#6 Hookum

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 12:34 PM

I bought 5 rifles last year. They all came with gun locks from the factory. If it's a big issue then bring your own gun locks with you. That should end any arguement about locks. The issue is you physically walking out of the store without one. I had an employee hand carry each rifle out the store and to my vehicle for each of my purchases. Store policy (of course). And since most people don't carry one into the store with them, they got you. Don't have one, call your local Law enforcement office they usually give them away.

#7 Jason

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 12:42 PM

You could could go buy one of those reciept books from Staples and write a reciept for your lock that you purchased from your business. Don't even need a computer to do that.

#8 Mayhem

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 12:48 PM

Or you could just buy the locks and not try to cause even more trouble for a gunstore. We need to not be against them. I have a safe and have never been requested to buy a lock unless I've purchased the firearm at Sportsman's Warehouse. They are the ONLY ones who have forced me into a lock (both times), and they said that i could even return it if I wanted. Shoot, I'll mail you two gunlocks and you can mail 'em back when the purchase is complete.EDIT: I do understand your complaint, and it's valid...but choose the high road since they haven't.

I can provide a receipt for the gunlocks. I have the gunlocks. If I'm willing to waist over a 100 bucks to file a small claims case over 2 $5 locks I don't think expense is my motivation. It's a matter of principle. I'm not the type to cut a business some slack because of the type of business they do. I starting going to that store back in the early 80's when it was Gun Country. I purchased my very first shot gun there. I watched it change hands and change names to barnwood (same people that own the Ripon Barnwood) It wasn't the same but it wasn't that bad. Then it changed hands again and changed names to Ronning Arms, and every experience I'v had with them has been a bad one. The idea of some one that sells guns for a living to either not know or knowing lie about the law, to force the sale of an overstocked Gunlock is completely unethical and morally wrong. and to simply bend over and take it is to encourage it.

You could could go buy one of those reciept books from Staples and write a reciept for your lock that you purchased from your business. Don't even need a computer to do that.

Na I print receipts off my computer for my own business, and I can use them to right off the loss when I buy $5 gunlocks and then sell them to myself for $.01 then take the Receipt to the gun shop to pick my guns up. (I wouldn't actually write this off on my quarterly but it is fun to suggest) Sides I'm a computer geek (some say Ubber geek)

#9 Jeff

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 01:15 PM

I can provide a receipt for the gunlocks. I have the gunlocks. If I'm willing to waist over a 100 bucks to file a small claims case over 2 $5 locks I don't think expense is my motivation. It's a matter of principle. I'm not the type to cut a business some slack because of the type of business they do. I starting going to that store back in the early 80's when it was Gun Country. I purchased my very first shot gun there. I watched it change hands and change names to barnwood (same people that own the Ripon Barnwood) It wasn't the same but it wasn't that bad. Then it changed hands again and changed names to Ronning Arms, and every experience I'v had with them has been a bad one. The idea of some one that sells guns for a living to either not know or knowing lie about the law, to force the sale of an overstocked Gunlock is completely unethical and morally wrong. and to simply bend over and take it is to encourage it.

It is a bunch of B.S. that they may be doing this incorrectly as according to the law...it's blatantly dishonest, I agree.I agree with the principle, it just seems to me that taking them to small claims puts another hash mark up for anyone except law-abiding gun owners. I would just bring your two locks down there, show them the law and tell them this is your last time doing business with them. And maybe even mention that you've posted this dishonesty on a public forum and that should also not help their sales.

#10 Mayhem

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 01:30 PM

It is a bunch of B.S. that they may be doing this incorrectly as according to the law...it's blatantly dishonest, I agree.I agree with the principle, it just seems to me that taking them to small claims puts another hash mark up for anyone except law-abiding gun owners. I would just bring your two locks down there, show them the law and tell them this is your last time doing business with them. And maybe even mention that you've posted this dishonesty on a public forum and that should also not help their sales.

You can't bring them the locks you have to have a receipt for the locks dated within 15 days before picking up your firearm or you have to purchase a lock from them. Thats sort of my dilemma, I can get around purchasing a gunlock thing by being some what dishonest, bypassing a BS handgun law I don't believe in and that is also being over exaggerated an inaproperately applied to Long Guns by the gun shop. This doesn't force the store to stop Lying to customers stating "it's the law", or admitting to and posting it as store policy before the transaction takes place.If I show receipts it wont help the next honest but less knowledgeable customer. I feel Ronning either has clueless staff or is in business to pray on their customers lack of knowledge. Over inflated prices, Poor advice, pushing wrong products on the customer to move stock. misquotating or fabricating laws ect. ect.

#11 Jeff

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 02:06 PM

I feel Ronning either has clueless staff...

I'll bet my $5 gun lock on this. :smiley-funny-post-sign:

#12 Mayhem

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 09:38 AM

They had a really hot looking women working for them at one time. She didn't know the difference between a rifle and a shotgun and thought Camo guns were "gay". She wore really low cut jeans and a thong with a nice little tat above her umm cheek divider. I use to love going in there at the time and having her show me the ammo that was on the bottom shelf behind the counter. She doesn't work there any more unfortunately. The existing employees aren't that much smarter and not nearly as easy on the eyes.

#13 du9207

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 08:32 PM

LOL, that was funny :smiley-funny-post-sign:when i bought my two OLL (different months) i was required to buy locks for them or provide the model number of safe

#14 Mayhem

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 06:34 PM

Well I went down to pick up my rifle and shotgun. I was not asked to buy a Gunlock and I was not asked to fill out a Gunsafe affidavit. I took my Guns out to my truck locked them up and went back in. I gave Chris a Copy of the LAW, the Child Safety Lock Act (CSLA) FAQ from BATFE. and a Copy of the letter that BATFE sent out to all FFL's in reference to the Child Safety Lock Act (CSLA). I was also nice enough to give them a Gunsafe affidavit that I had pre filled out and brought with me.My friend who I sold my glock to had a different problem. The first time he went there he had to show his Hand Gun Safety Certificate, Which he had gotten when we took the Glock in to PTP Transfer it. So now we had to go back to his house and back to the gun store but this time he forgot his gun case. I offered to bring in one of my Gun Cases I had in my truck. No problem Ronning was going let him walk out with it as is, At least my friend was able to talk them into giving him a plastic bag to put it in. Oh and they did not force him to by a gunlock, show a receipt for a gunlock, or fill out a Gunsafe affidavit, before taking possession of the firearm wich WAS a handgun. My friend had to ASK about it. They at least gave him a gunlock at no charge.I GIVE UP!




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