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tricks with the chrono


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#1 ehd

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:19 AM

Any good advise on using the chrono. I just bought an f-1. I took it out yesterday and a friend wanted to sight in his 300 rum, so we set it up. I was pleased to see my handloads were consistant. The factory remington ammo in the 300 was a little crazy, varying a couple hundred fps.(3130-3300) I had the unit set up 15 ft from the rifle. Just curious if it was too close to get an accurate reading?. The 357 sig rounds also were consistant at 1550 fps with a 90 grain bullet.

#2 sxshooter

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 02:23 PM

ehd,
I've had a couple different chronographs over the years and used a couple owned by others. Each one was different in some ways. Most notably, they seemed to get error messages more or less often. I typically set up at about the same distance you mentioned. Muzzle blast seemed to cause error messages if too close. I don't recall thinking muzzle blast was causing any variable readings. You might move it back to say 30 feet. No way the muzzle blast should affect that distance.

The chrono I currently own is about 8-9 yrs old and is a CED (Competition Edge Dynamics) double trap chrono that checks one measurement against the other. If they are over a certain percentage apart, the reading is given as an error. I trust this one more than any other chrono I've used.

Chuck

#3 tawnoper

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 07:54 AM

Congrats on the Chronograph. I went a long time without one, wish I'd have got one sooner.

Besides showing you velocities, they can help you figure things out as well. I have a 22-250 that I always reloaded for. I always noted that it seemed to have a large chamber since my reloads that fit fine in it wouldn't come close to chambering in my buddies exact same rifle. My load was a full house load of H380 and a 55gr bullet. Since I wasn't showing much in the way of pressure signs I even took it up a 1/2gr over max. I figured it was a laser beam.

All that changed when I bought my first Chronograph. I took a couple shots with my 22-250 and found it wasn't moving much faster than my .223. It was about 250fps below what it should have been. I slowly began to add a little powder until I started getting a sticky bolt lift, then backed it down a 1/2gr. Now it shot 22-250 velocities and took advantage of the higher powder burn. My overly large chamber on this gun went against the max's in most books. On the flip side...my 40x Swift has a tight chamber and will usually not take a manual max load. Having the FPS in addition to looking for pressure signs is invaluable IMO. If you have a 22-250 that is showing high pressure but only shooting 3200 fps, you have a problem somewhere. You'd only know that with a Chronograph. If you have two of them and are good with math you can figure out BC of different bullets.

Usually I get errors by three different things. Low Battery, Muzzle Blast or bright sunshine. The instructions will tell you how far to set it up. You can adjust that one way or the other a few feet. If you take it to the range and someone sets up next to you you'll probably get a lot of errors from their muzzle blast. I usually take mine to the desert and setup somewhere without someone next to me. If it's bright I'll setup my ez-up over it...

#4 ehd

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:29 PM

Thanks for the help. I notice my .223 gets pressure signs before max, and the velocity shows it

#5 tawnoper

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 08:53 PM

That's not before the max...that is the max.

#6 sxshooter

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:26 AM

Little things with your reloads can introduce higher than expected pressures. Bullets seated out far enough to engage the rifling. Bullets slightly larger than the bore. A case neck too long and hitting the chamber. A thick case neck in a chamber on the small side. Primers of a different make. Cases of a different capacity/make. Temperature! Outside air temperature. The cartridge temperature after setting in a hot chamber.

#7 ehd

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 06:21 AM

i learned alot about different primers on my little test the other day. huge differance @ 100 yards. My next test is on neck tension. i have found that small powder variants matter, but not as much as some of the other variables. what is considered a deviation on a 5 shot string? 20-30 fps?

#8 tawnoper

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:33 AM

That's the thing about reloading that never goes away...variables. 20-30fps deviation is not bad at all.

The main thing...the most important thing when chasing accuracy is what you're willing to accept and having realistic expectations inline with what you are using.

Real accuracy is all about consistency. A really accurate custom built gun will shoot little groups all day long with a wide array of ammo. But accuracy costs money. That's why customs cost as much as they do. I see guys buying over the counter 500 dollar rifles and think that they'll reload it into a 3/8" gun...not going to happen consistently. I've always told my friends that think that way, "lets go to the range, for every 5 shot 3/8" group you shoot I'll give you 20, for every one you don't you give me 10"...I'd be rich at the end of the day.

Also, a really accurate rifle will give you much more precise info to what is really going on when you make changes to primers, seating depths etc.

For me at least, primers never really changed things drastically. Slight differences in powder charges same thing. Neck tension is another thing though. I've always felt it has quite an affect on accuracy. On my squirrel guns I'll usually anneal the necks and use a bushing die. Most of my coyote rifles I just reload for, magazine length, pick a bullet and a powder charge, sight in and go hunt.

#9 Kephers

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 07:43 PM

Whats the cost of a decent chrono? where would i check

#10 Desert Fox

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 07:54 PM

i learned alot about different primers on my little test the other day. huge differance @ 100 yards. My next test is on neck tension. i have found that small powder variants matter, but not as much as some of the other variables. what is considered a deviation on a 5 shot string? 20-30 fps?

ehd, for a first time user of chronograph, you are very astute in your observation. Using different brands of primers does have greater effect on your reloads. It is a known fact that some primers burns hotter than others. You are right that small variation in powder charge don't matter much. That's the reason why benchrest shooters never weigh their powder charge. 20-30 fps extreme spread is fine for hunting load.

#11 sxshooter

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 05:13 AM

Keith
I've been very impressed with my Competitive Edge Dynamics chronograph. When I bought it about 10 yrs ago it was the best. I looked at Oehler but the information I found suggested the CED was a better unit. They run $200 and can linked to a pc to use the free software to record and do some basic stuff like standard deviation.

http://www.cedhk.com...ograph-Set.html

#12 ehd

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 05:49 AM

thanks all for the information. Do you find that it is a constant that if you have a low deviation ,it is an accurate load? example, if you have a bad day at the range,( shooting bad groups) but the deviation is low, should you re-visit the load another day? i got the little v-maxes dialed in !

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#13 Desert Fox

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 08:12 AM

Yes and no.

In my experienced, loads with larger variations are just as accurate as loads with smaller one. Understand that the uniformity of your load is just one part of the equation in the whole scheme of the shooting regime. With that said however, loads that are consistent is a confidence builder if nothing else, especially if you're using it for competition or hunting.

I've always strived for a consistent hand load. For me, it is a matter of principle. I hand load because I want to feed nothing but the best for my rifle. Besides, I really enjoy handloading just as much as shooting.

#14 Frank

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 09:42 AM

A really accurate custom built gun will shoot little groups all day long with a wide array of ammo. But accuracy costs money.


Yep, has also been my experience...

One can still get good, consistent accuracy from many factory barreled rifles, especially those that have had some accuracy work done to them. Which no longer makes them a "stocked", off the shelf rifle of course. While these may not produce 3/8" groups consistently, they can (consistently) produce in the neighborhood of 5/8" (+/-) w/5 shots. Which ain't bad... for me anyhow!

In my experienced, loads with larger variations are just as accurate as loads with smaller one.


Yep (again)... Seen it often! And as many already stated, "consistency" is a real key... and a confidence builder indeed!

Handloading adds another measure of satisfaction & enjoyment to our shooting and hunting sports.

#15 Kephers

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 11:03 AM

I love reloading too its fun. The key once more is consistancy. Not only with loading the ammo, bullet type, powder charge, primer, case length and over all length but also when you are sitting behind the rifle trying to put that round downrange. Consistancy is key. Trigger control, breathing, sight alignment and sight picture, it needs to become second nature when sitting behind your rifle with the business end pointed downrange.

Consistancy is key when looking for accuracy. Sometimes you find small bugs in either your form, trigger control and handloads that can be seen and corrected. Or even in the rifle itself that can greatly improve accuracy. However, sometimes those corrections may vary. You may only get .1 inches in correction or maybe .5 at 100 yards. While not huge, if you step back to the 500 or even 1000 and beyond those little corrections can equate to a win or loss, or a hit or miss, killing shot or wounding shot depending on what you're doing. So once again, to echo, consistancy IS key. From there, fine tuning comes into play.

Keith
I've been very impressed with my Competitive Edge Dynamics chronograph. When I bought it about 10 yrs ago it was the best. I looked at Oehler but the information I found suggested the CED was a better unit. They run $200 and can linked to a pc to use the free software to record and do some basic stuff like standard deviation.

http://www.cedhk.com...ograph-Set.html


Oh and thank you for the info! I will check it out shooter.

#16 sxshooter

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 05:04 AM

Just a comment about a production rifles potential. About 15 years ago my wife bought me a Winchester Classic M70 with a BOSS in 264 win mag. I put my pet load in it and shot a few groups. They were around 3/4". I turned the BOSS a little and got it down to 3/8". The only thing I had done to the gun was to glassbed it and adjust the trigger. Amazing to me. This is a big game hunting weight rifle.

#17 ehd

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 05:46 AM

i have never been more thrilled with this little remington .223. it will shoot any bullet with great accuracy. I built a load with berger 55s and BL-C2 powder yesterday that drives tacks. Enjoyable little cartridge for me a novice reloader, to load.

#18 Frank

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 06:49 AM

i have never been more thrilled with this little remington .223.


Yep, Eric, many of us can relate. It is an awesome little (over achieving) round, is what I always like to call it. And cheap to shoot, comparatively speaking. In other words, just what is there not to love about it, eh? And of course you have it in the right rifle brand too. lol :good: :smiley-innocent-halo-yellow:

it will shoot any bullet with great accuracy.


Right on again, and is what I have always stated also. The 223 has a large selection of bullets and powders available to choose from, unlike some other calibers, AND can shoot these many (bullets & powders) accurately, again, unlike some, if not many other calibers. The 223 is definitely the little train that can.

#19 Desert Fox

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 07:52 AM

Just a comment about a production rifles potential. About 15 years ago my wife bought me a Winchester Classic M70 with a BOSS in 264 win mag. I put my pet load in it and shot a few groups. They were around 3/4". I turned the BOSS a little and got it down to 3/8". The only thing I had done to the gun was to glassbed it and adjust the trigger. Amazing to me. This is a big game hunting weight rifle.

SX, sometimes you can be lucky with factory rifle. I have same age Model 70 Laredo that my wife bought me for my birthday. Mine is chambered for the 300 Win Mag. Talking about half minute factory rifle, this was it.

This was the first 10 shot group during barrel break-in.
Posted Image

Typical 3 and 5 shot group
Posted Image

The first deer that succumbed to it at 350 yards.
Posted Image

The rifle has a new tube now, a Pac-Nor 10 twist Polygon, and I planned on taking it to Texas at the end of the month to get blooded.
Posted Image

#20 ehd

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:59 AM

I like the 300 win mag. Not much diff than the 300 rum except cheaper to shoot and less recoil.

#21 Desert Fox

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:13 PM

i have never been more thrilled with this little remington .223. it will shoot any bullet with great accuracy. I built a load with berger 55s and BL-C2 powder yesterday that drives tacks. Enjoyable little cartridge for me a novice reloader, to load.

BLC-2 is a great powder for the 223. I used it exclusively as a replacement powder for H335. As a matter of fact, the two powder is almost identical with BLC-2 edge out the 335 in the velocity department. Accuracy in my rifle between the two powder is about the same.

#22 ehd

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 08:22 PM

when they say heat sensitive, how does that translate to average hunting conditions? . I would assume that some big no-nos is leaving ammo in a hot vehichle, leaving a round in a hot chamber and then firing , such as working on a squirrel town.

#23 Frank

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:36 AM

when they say heat sensitive, how does that translate to average hunting conditions?


As far as accuracy & velocity, it really doesn't (translate to or effect the average hunting conditions). It's pretty much a non issue for the most part in other words.

The only exception being is for excessive pressures. In other words, if a MAX load was developed in mild temps, say 40-80 degrees or there abouts, and then fired in 90+ degrees, it may (or may not) develop excessive pressures, such as stuck cases due to a powders heat sensitivity.

I think most powder companies have pretty much fixed the heat sensitive powders they had. Alliant was one of the worst. I had chrono'd as much as 300 fps difference in my 22-250 loads from approx 45 - 100 degree temps. RL 15 is an outstanding powder for the 250 and 50 grain bullet, but I quit using it because of its temp extremes. Again, it is likely no longer a problem from what I read, but I have not personally tested it in a number of years either.

Also, don't let anyone tell you otherwise, that certain powders were not heat sensitive, at least a few years back. I seriously doubt if they actually tested the (temp) difference's like I had, nor did they bother to do any research to see in fact how true this problem really was. Plus, if I remember right, benchrest shooters constantly adjusted their loads as temps rose with certain powders yrs ago.

OH, & yes, leaving ammo in the sun could also be a problem, & drives me crazy seeing most folks doing just that. But again, likely not as big a problem today with our improved temp resistant powders, as it used to be.

This is also partly why I love Hodgdon's powders. They were years ahead of the game, having some of the least temp sensitive powders long before the others started catching on.

#24 tawnoper

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:47 AM

OH, & yes, leaving ammo in the sun could also be a problem


This>

On a hot day walking around with some shells in your pocket it might bump up the pressure a little bit. But, leave them in the sun to the point they are hot in your hand you can have a problem.

Hodgdons Extreme line is very good with maintaining consistency in temperature changes...but even with it I wouldn't let my shells cook in the sun.

If I'm shooting ground squirrels on a hot day I'll leave my shells in a cooler next to me.




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