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Old Side by Side double barrel guns


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#1 sxshooter

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 01:34 PM

Those of you interested in double barrel shotguns may find this link educational. It's maintained by a friend and is intended simply as a source of information to all. He has collected this information from several gun forums specific to double guns and his travels.

There's are specific sections on damascus guns for you that are interested in learning about that type of gun.

Here's the link.
http://www.picturetrail.com/revdocdrew

#2 clampdaddy

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 07:10 PM

Wow, lots of good stuff. I can't belied that I just saw a picture of a bulged damascus barrel that someone reamed to take a 3.5 inch shell. What smith would perform that job?!

#3 sxshooter

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 07:40 PM

Clamp,
Improperly lengthening the chamber is a common reason for barrel failures, Damascus or homogenous steel. Likely, the chamber job was done by an amateur. Chamber reamers can be bought by anyone.

I've been shooting damascus barreled guns for over 10 yrs off and on. Education on what loads they were designed for is key to shooting them safely. Also, understanding how strong they really are, goes a long way toward confidence in shooting them with proper ammo. A lot has been written on damascus barrels based on speculation and fear. But, recent tests have proven they are very strong. One test used a Parker with damascus barrels that were over 100 yrs old. The barrels held a measured 30,000 psi until the gun failed. This about 4 times the design working load pressures and nearly 3 times modern SAAMI specs for a 2 3/4" load.

#4 dangerranger

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 08:06 PM

Your friend has a very cool site! I learned a lot about how the barrels are made by looking at the blown up barrels! Ill be bookmarking that one. Thanks DR

#5 sxshooter

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 03:55 AM

DR,
There's an article in there about resoldering the upper and lower ribs on a set of barrels that shows it all disassembled to where just the tubes are joined at the breach. This area is silver brazed typically. The ribs are soft soldered. I wrote an article on resoldering the ribs and another member wrote one as well. The method I used is what was used and still used by most traditional makers, bailing wire and a torch. Dewey made an elaborate fixture. Both methods work well. Lots of pix in that one. http://www.picturetr...m/view/18691676

#6 clampdaddy

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 05:11 PM

Clamp,
Improperly lengthening the chamber is a common reason for barrel failures, Damascus or homogenous steel. Likely, the chamber job was done by an amateur. Chamber reamers can be bought by anyone.

I've been shooting damascus barreled guns for over 10 yrs off and on. Education on what loads they were designed for is key to shooting them safely. Also, understanding how strong they really are, goes a long way toward confidence in shooting them with proper ammo. A lot has been written on damascus barrels based on speculation and fear. But, recent tests have proven they are very strong. One test used a Parker with damascus barrels that were over 100 yrs old. The barrels held a measured 30,000 psi until the gun failed. This about 4 times the design working load pressures and nearly 3 times modern SAAMI specs for a 2 3/4" load.


I've heard that a damascus barrel with no voids is actually stronger than most any other type of shotgun barrel because it is true hammer forged steel. I've always wanted a nice damascus shooter. Is there any type of x-ray test to find oxidized voids in damascus or do you still have to ship a gun to England and pray that you don't get back a box of pieces?

#7 dangerranger

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 06:14 PM

I was most interested in how they were sleeving old barrels. Ive installed sleeves in both rimfire and center fire rifles. I see know reason I couldn't make a set of liners. DR

#8 sxshooter

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 08:56 PM

Clamp,
The issues you are concerned about that are driving your questions are largely ficticious. Voids are not a realistic concern with a name maker. Condition of barrels can be safely made thru close visual inspections and mechanical dimensional inspections. Virtually all damascus barrel failures our community has turned up have been attributed to something less evasive like barrel obstruction, or under side wall thickness due to reaming or honing.

DR,
I "sleeved" a set of 20ga LC Smith barrels down to 28ga in one of those articles that Drew has in his collection. "Sleeving" as the term is used in shotguns, is chopping off the barrels to something like 3" and boring the chambers out to accept a turned down breach section of the new barrel, which is usually soldered in, but sometimes welded.

#9 dangerranger

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 08:50 PM

I have "Stubbed" several single barrel single shot guns. But I had never thought of doing a Double gun before. On the H&R guns stubbing is its own field. If I had a SXS rifle in 45 colt That would be fun! Regulating those two barrels is going to be the hard part. DR

#10 clampdaddy

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 06:52 PM

I bought two Ithaca NID shotguns in the hopes that one day I could afford to take both of them and have a switch barrel double rifle/shotgun combo gun made.........then dad burst my bubble and reminded me that if I ever got into a project like that I should use a higher grade receiver than the field grade guns that I have. Lol! I should've thought that one out a little better.

#11 zippy1970

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:47 AM

I was taking my new ( to me ) SXS out the other day & was talking with a gentleman that mentioned about " sleeving " an older 16Ga down to 20Ga . He looked into Briley to get it done . $400.00 is what they wanted .

Is it poss to have a " insert / liner " put into Damascas barrels ? Beauty of the Damascas on the outside & a " stronger " inside ?

Andy

#12 sxshooter

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 09:54 PM

Andy,
the Briley $400 quote was undoubtedly for what's called drop-in subgauge tubes. They would not do a "sleeving" job for $400, where the barrels are cut off at 3", bored out to accept new barrel tubes, and new barrels turned down to fit in the stubbed and bored barrel breach block, then soldered in. This work is typically $1500 to 2000+ in the U.S..

There was an outfit in England, called Teague, that was doing a "liner" installation of high strength steel of very thin wall. They would ream and hone the original barrels to paper thin, then make some liners to insert in with an adhesive. This process was pretty expensive,something on the order of $2000-3000 if I recall. A gunsmith friend in Colorado was the U.S. agent, but it got to where Teague was having problems with the process and with the shipping/handling/schedule.

Damascus continues to carry a stigma among the general shooting public because of heresay about the lack of damascus strength. There was a test of a 12ga Parker gun about 100+ yrs old with damascus barrels where they used instrumentation to measure pressure or progressively hotter and hotter loads until failure of the gun. My recollection is the barrels never failed, but at 30,000 psi, the action popped open and would not close or something like that, which ended the testing. Keep in mind that a 12ga 2 3/4" modern shell may not exceed 11,500 psi for SAAMI specs. Load standards for guns made in the late 1800s-early 1900s was in the 7500 psi range. Where someone can get into trouble is when they ream a chamber deeper to shoot 2 3/4 or even more likely, 3" shells. This reduces the wallthickness at the front of the chamber because the outside of these barrels tapers. Then the foolish shooter stuffs a 3" shell into a gun with lower wallthickness and problems can occur. Or a foolish shooter simply stuffs a 3" shell into the short 2 1/2" chamber and it can cause a pressure spike beyond the 3" shell pressures normally developed in a modern 3" chambered gun. There's nothing inherently unsafe about shooting damascus guns. You just need to learn the pitfalls and use of proper ammunition for the guns. The doublegunshop.com forum is the best place for that.

#13 KNOCKED UP

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 04:23 AM

All I can say is wow,
That is quite a collection, and
very interesting.
Tom




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