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CCW - Another lesson learned the hard way.


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#1 PBM

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 08:29 PM

:good: Fox News Digital Network John Stossel's Take. Philly Police Harass, Threaten to Shoot Man Legally Carrying Gun by John Stossel | May 16, 2011 A story in today's Philadelphia Daily News shows why it's so important that citizens be allowed to videotape cops - it can be citizens' only way to fight back against police abuse of power. This incident happened several weeks ago in Philadelphia to Mark Fiorino, a 25-year-old IT worker who carries a gun on his hip at all times for self defense. He got the gun after several friends were mugged. But he didn't count on attacks by police: On a mild February afternoon, Fiorino, 25, decided to walk to an AutoZone on Frankford Avenue in Northeast Philly with the .40-caliber Glock he legally owns holstered in plain view on his left hip. His stroll ended when someone called out from behind: "Yo, Junior, what are you doing?" Fiorino wheeled and saw Sgt. Michael Dougherty aiming a handgun at him. What happened next would be hard to believe, except that Fiorino audio-recorded all of it: a tense, profanity-laced, 40-minute encounter with cops who told him that what he was doing - openly carrying a gun on the city's streets - was against the law. "Do you know you can't openly carry here in Philadelphia?" Dougherty asked, according to the YouTube clip. "Yes, you can, if you have a license to carry firearms," Fiorino said. "It's Directive 137. It's your own internal directive." Fiorino was right. It was perfectly legal to carry the gun. But that didn't matter to the cop: Fiorino offered to show Dougherty his driver's and firearms licenses. The cop told him to get on his knees. "Excuse me?" Fiorino said. "Get down on your knees. Just obey what I'm saying," Dougherty said. "Sir," Fiorino replied, "I'm more than happy to stand here -" "If you make a move, I'm going to f------ shoot you," Dougherty snapped. "I'm telling you right now, you make a move, and you're going down!" "Is this necessary?" Fiorino said. It went on like that for a little while, until other officers responded to Dougherty's calls for backup. Fiorino was forced to the ground and shouted at as he tried to explain that he had a firearms license and was legally allowed to openly carry his weapon. "You f------ come here looking for f------ problems? Where do you live?" yelled one officer. "I'm sorry, gentlemen," Fiorino said. "If I'm under arrest, I have nothing left to say." "F------ a------, shut the f--- up!" the cop hollered. The cops discovered his recorder as they searched his pockets, and unleashed another string of expletives. Fiorino said he sat handcuffed in a police wagon while the officers made numerous phone calls to supervisors, trying to find out if they could lock him up. When they learned that they were in the wrong, they let him go. But only temporarily. Fiorino posted the audio recordings on youtube, and now they are harassing him again: A new investigation was launched, and last month the District Attorney's Office decided to charge Fiorino with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct because, a spokeswoman said, he refused to cooperate with police... He's scheduled for trial in July. If one listens to the audiotapes, it's hard to imagine how a reasonable person could charge Fiorino (and not the cops) for disorderly conduct.

#2 Braz

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 09:06 PM

This is precisely the reason that even legal I would never consider open carry. It may turn out that this individual is exonerated, however, the cost of proving it will bankrupt him. Sure, he may be able to recover the costs down the road, but in the meantime his family is kicked out of the house he will loose, they will have to endure all the disadvantages of having NO money left, and all for what. If you are going to carry, carry concealed.
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#3 Coaster

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 09:39 PM

I agree Braz.... A much better alternative and eliminates the confusion and risk of encounters like the one described above.

#4 mtn dog

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 09:43 PM

:good: In California, we are cursed with weak legislators who opt for the simple minded solutions like outlawing open carry. Thanks for nothing Mr. Fiorino. I agree with Braz. If you must carry, carry concealed and keep that fact strictly between you and the bad guy, if and when that time comes.
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#5 DirtyDave

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 09:46 PM

Its perfectly legal here in Ca for anyone to Unloaded-Open-Carry a handgun, but nobody does it because of situations like this. It only draws negative attention.I agree Concealed is the only way to go, Permit or not.....
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#6 PBM

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 10:08 PM

Open carry is obviously asking for trouble. I agree, keep it to yourself.

#7 timmy

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 04:28 AM

This guy looks like he went out looking for trouble and found it. Open carry may work in a more rural area, but in a metropolitan area, the cops only see guns under bad situations. So few people would be "open carrying" legally (only licensed individuals who choose to; a very small minority) that the officer would have reasonable suspicion that it was being ILLEGALLY carried. The officer would stop and detain, and then verify the legal status of the weapon. But first, the officer would obviously have to contain the situation first. Any open carry holster would be designed for rapid deployment of the firearm.This guy gave no indication, in my opinion, that he was a "law abiding citizen" despite his citing the right to carry. Any reasonable person would have immediately cooperated. Instead, he seemed intent on escalating the situation. From the officer's perspective, he has an armed individual who is argumentative and refusing to comply with reasonable measures to ensure the officer's safety during the contact.I saw another video a few years ago posted by a Bay Area moron on roller blades skating at the train station. He had a doctor's RX for the blades as some sort of a handicapped assistance device. So he rollerbladed around the train platform, weaving in and out of foot traffic, until stopped by the police; and then filmed himself getting stopped. All during the video he was a smart mouth, (the cop was a bit of a moron too, to be fair).This situation is the same thing, IMO

#8 Haywood

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 07:35 AM

No need to worry, looks like our great leaders are once again going to relieve us of all trouble that comes with making a choice.http://pasadenaindep...goes-to-senate/
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#9 Bisley

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 09:55 AM

Sure, open carry may be legal, but so is dressing up like a clown, hopping down the street on one leg, yelling "The end is near", and holding a sign that says "Free Manson". BUT, both will attract LEO and I don't blame them. Why on Earth would you want to possibly create a mob of scared people when you can simply put it in your pocket or under your jacket? No sympathy here. It is idiots looking for trouble like this that set us way back in the fight for CCW. Just because it's legal doesn't mean there's not another better legal alternative like concealed carry. I'm sorry, but until more people get used to open carry, it is actually pretty rude. Guys like this know the majority of common folks don't know it's legal, yet they do it on purpose. It's no wonder they are so hesitant to hand out CCW's. It only takes a few bad (or in this case rude and stupid) apples...........

#10 DAVEF

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 06:11 PM

I can not speak to this case, but in general if you do not push for your legal/constitutional rights they will be slowly lost....use it or lose it.DAVEF

#11 Bisley

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 07:12 PM

I can not speak to this case, but in general if you do not push for your legal/constitutional rights they will be slowly lost....use it or lose it.DAVEF

Do you REALLY feel the need to walk down the middle of the street with a gun at your side for the whole world to see instead of in your pocket or under your jacket?! This "stunt" was not done to promote concealed carry. If anything, he set it back. Nobody here is trying to do away with CCW's, but to think that everyone in the world should be able to wear a gun IN PLAIN SIGHT everywhere they go in this modern civilized day is absolutely absurd. Even plain clothes cops (without a uniform to distinguish them as cops) have the courtesy to conceal their weapon so as not to draw attention or alarm folks. I whole heartedly agree we should be able to attain CCW's, but I don't think we should necessarily have them visible. Especially when angry, it's a natural tendency to be more nervous or hostile when you actually SEE a sidearm. It's just asking for extra trouble, pure and simple.

#12 TonyS

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 07:48 AM

It is really kind of a question of 'do you want to be right' or do you want to be a guy who was wrongfully killed by an overzealous cop?

#13 Caneman

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 12:57 PM

If you open carry an unloaded firearm in CA can you also legally have bullets in your possession as well?

#14 DirtyDave

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 01:39 PM

Yes, you can carry ammo or loaded mags, they just cant be in the gun
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#15 Bisley

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 03:28 PM

This is why I never understood why anybody wants to open carry. Nothing like wearing a neon sign that says "Not armed!". I'd rather let people guess. Is he armed? Does he have a CCW?Carrying an unloaded gun is kind of like carrying a flashlight with the batteries in your pocket. By the time you need them (you have to put in the bullets or batteries) it's too late. It's too dark to see to put the batteries in and even worse, too late to load your gun when your dead. Forget open carry, a CCW has all the advantages and none of the problems (if you can get one). So folks like this idiot in Philidelphia should quit complaining about open carry and start trying to promote concealed carry.

#16 dangerranger

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 05:59 PM

when and why did the mere sight of a gun make everyone so nervous? why would a gunrack in the back window of your truck make you a target for police? when was the last time you saw anyone on a motorcycle with a scabord? think about the kind of people who would want to carry this way. hunters, target shooters, farmers, etc. my problem isnt with the laws we pass to control fellons its that we punish the honest. I have lived in places where open carry is the rule, and its so comon that no one looks oddly at it. Im not shure that Id want that for large citys where peoples personal space is limited. I wouldnt want to stand so close to someone on a bus with their dessert eagle jabbing me in the side. but I wouldnt be uncomfortabe seeing a customer at the bank in line ahead of me carrying. those that want a strict conceeled carry law should be careful what we wish for. there are a couple of states where the sight of your conceeled gun is a crime. even the imprint through your clothing . open carry also includes your car. my 75 year old mom could have her gun in plain sight in her car. how many times do you hear of these kinds of things happening in AZ? people there are not automaticly paranoid when they see a gun. my choice would be easy to get permits for areas with high populations and open carry [ without need for any permit] in the rest of the state. but the only way this will ever come to be is if we can agree on a easy way to identify those who may not possess a firearm. good luck with that one!

#17 Braz

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 06:24 PM

Just a quick point of interest, the key that says shift, on both the left and right of your keyboard, will assist you in making capital letters, thereby making it a whole lot easier for others to read your posts.
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#18 Bisley

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 07:17 PM

Just a quick point of interest, the key that says shift, on both the left and right of your keyboard, will assist you in making capital letters, thereby making it a whole lot easier for others to read your posts.

:angry: :( :( :angry: :( Thanks, Braz, I'm tired of trying and have just given up hope. This would explain a lot about the "well thought out response" though. After all, what's to make people nervous when even the scum of your city carry guns on their hip?! Asking me why seeing people with guns strapped on their side would make people nervous is (for lack of better words) rude and asinine. Just because WE don't mind them, doesn't mean a majority of the population doesn't. And I'm OK with that. And I can respect why it may bother them. It doesn't take much effort to cover a gun with a shirt or put it in your pocket. It is called respect. I've realized the first time I saw your grammar, you probably don't know the meaning, but it means being nice to others (like hiding your weapon, using proper grammar to communicate) so that you may have other privileges (like being able to carry a weapon). I am not so narrow minded as to think that just because I don't mind too much seeing a weapon on someone in public, that other people should feel the EXACT same way. Come on now, you have to be somewhat realistic......... :fuhrer: off...... :(

#19 Caneman

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 07:36 AM

Yes, you can carry ammo or loaded mags, they just cant be in the gun

Thanks... is the magazine considerd part of gun, so a cop could consider your gun loaded if the magazine is loaded even though it is not in the gun?

#20 fakawee

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 09:27 PM

Wow! Any of you Arizona residents laughing at us right now? I'm thinking of moving east these days.....
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#21 Bisley

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 09:41 PM

Better wait until they put out the statewide bonfire first! Poor folks, especially after all they've done for immigration, they truly do not deserve this. Why couldn't it be some place like D.C., or Massachusetts, or San Francisco :good:

#22 rdsii64

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 10:54 PM

If Frisco burnt to the ground that would be a true blessing.

#23 DirtyDave

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 07:57 PM

Thanks... is the magazine considerd part of gun, so a cop could consider your gun loaded if the magazine is loaded even though it is not in the gun?

Nope. If the mag is not in the gun and there is not a round in the chamber, then it is not loaded. Loaded mags on your hip are fine
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