wannakillacoyote

My AR build Start to Finish

147 posts in this topic

this reminds me of the mailorder switchblade knifes that used to be sold through mailorder . they would sell you the knife with the spring removed . which was legal . therefor it was a lockback knife . but if you installed the spring , you were breaking the law . as long as they are allowed to sell it , being whatever it is , they will continue to sell it . for anyone to sell off list lowers is fine . its what you do with it after you have it that can be legal or illegal .

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Here is Bweise' response to the Calguns moderator Leelaw's (who is a lawyer IIRC) statement that an open magwell makes no difference to a fixed magazine (BB) built OLL:Quote:Originally Posted by leelaw An open magazine well is not illegal, nor does the magazine well define if it can accept or deny a detachable magazine. The mechanism used to catch/hold/release the magazine determines if it has a "capacity to accept a detachable magazine."Since a detachable magazine is defined as one that can be released without the use of a tool, a bullet button-modified AR15 style lower is one that can not accept detachable magazines since it requires the use of a tool to release the magazine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Pretty good. Let's just say that an open magwell that allows the mag to be removed without any tool is illegal - if it's on a semiauto centerfire rifle with any evil features.__________________-----------------------Bill WieseHere is the difference between a Bullet Button and a Prince 50 mag lock:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------I think the confussion that everyone is having is the difference between the Prince 50 vs. BBPlease correct me if I am wrong, but the Prince-50 requires a (10 round) mag be continually "locked-in" to the magwell continually since it takes a tool to attach it. If you inserted a mag into a OLL with a Prince-50 "WITHOUT" locking it in place, you would in effect have an assault weapon.The BB does not have to have a mag inserted into it since the mag locks automatically when it is 'attached'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Here is Gene Hoffman's synopsis of the regulation and Bwiese's agreement with it including the statement that he needs to update his earlier post about it:----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I believe that Bill is working on updates to the memos and FAQs.The bullet button complies with CA law using a slightly different method than the old fashioned Prince-50.Penal Code 12276.1. says:Quote:(a) (1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following: It does not say:Quote:(a) (1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept an attachable or detachable magazine and any one of the following: The phrase "Detachable Magazine" is a specific defined term:Quote:CCR 5469.(a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool… And the reason the term is defined that way is the SKS issue. In the 2000 Rulemaking that implemented SB-23. This is what they had to say about the SKS:Quote:CommentA1.12 - The SKS rifle with a detachable magazine cannot be changed without using a bullet tip as a tool, thus the regulations conflict with the specific listing of SKS rifles with detachable magazines in the Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Control Act. DOJ has no authority to contradict existing law. DOJ ResponseThe Department disagrees with the comment because any magazine that requires the use of a bullet or any other tool for its removal is a fixed magazine, not a detachable magazine. The SKS with a true detachable magazine does not require a bullet or any other tool to remove and is a controlled assault weapon under Penal Code section 12276. Identifying a bullet as a tool allows for the proper categorization of an SKS with a fixed magazine. Therefore, the SKS referred to in the comment has a fixed, not detachable magazine. From http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/fsor.pdf-Gene__________________"The problem with being a gun rights supporter is that the left hates guns and the right hates rights" -Anon Updated for 2008... Thanks GOP. hoffmang --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #6 03-23-2007, 11:47 AM Jicko Quote:Originally Posted by RobG I read Bill Wiese's "memo" and it stated that a "fixed magazine should never be removed while a PG or tele stock is attached. So what is the point of the BB? You still have to open the gun to load, correct?Trying to decide between the BB or MM config. Maybe both to satisfy my paranoia The OLD way of "fixing the magazine"(sport conv kit, washer-nut fixing the magazine catch, SemiAutoSam fix mag button, or the prince50 set-screw magazine button) will render the lower receiver capable of accepting a "detachable" magazine in your process of removing the "fixed magazine"; since in order to remove the magazine, you will have to remove the "magazine fixing mechanism", and without such mechanism in place, your lower receiver will be able to accept a magazine that is detachable without the use of a tool; hence, an illegal AW if with the PG or any other evil features.The NEW way of "fixing the magazine" is the "Bullet Button", which allows the removal for the magazine with the use of a tool, hence, such magazine is NOT by definition of the law, a "detachable magazine"! And you DO NOT need to remove the "Bullet Button" in order to remove the magazine; therefore, the mechanism that keep the OLL legal is still in place. Last but not least, if you EVER have to remove your "bullet button", be SURE to follow Bill's original advice, remove the pistol grip, and remove all evil features from the lower receiver before proceeding with the removal of the "bullet button".Last edited by Jicko : 03-23-2007 at 11:50 AM. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #7 03-23-2007, 11:49 AM bwiese Yes, Gene's summary is correct.Remember that when the FAQ/memo were created we were hyperconservative. We now realize that there is more room to manuever. In addition, a receiver with a pistol grip and/or telestock is NOT a semiauto centerfire rifle: you can have a 22LR or a manual-cycled upper on it with an open magwell and any or all 'characteristic features'.Apologies, I am working on finishing new/updated docs reflecting this - but as soon as I get a work project in fair shape (prerelease firmware, etc.)__________________-----------------------Bill WieseSan Jose --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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this reminds me of the mailorder switchblade knifes that used to be sold through mailorder . they would sell you the knife with the spring removed . which was legal . therefor it was a lockback knife . but if you installed the spring , you were breaking the law . as long as they are allowed to sell it , being whatever it is , they will continue to sell it . for anyone to sell off list lowers is fine . its what you do with it after you have it that can be legal or illegal .
I think this is similar. If we were just building standard AR's without the BB or Prince50 it would be the same as the scenario you are describing. By adding the BB or Prince50 we are complying with the current law and making our AR's Non Assault Weapons by definition. I would compare your scenario to someone buying all the AR parts then doing a little work to make it Fully Automatic which is clearly illegal (unless you are LEO or something).PS, for those of you looking Bud's just added a smokin deal on a Doublestar Lower for $99 DELIVERED!Doublestar Lower
Is there anywhere near fresno to buy the stripped lowers?
If you are willing to drive to Bako, PM me and I will give you my local FFL. Or you can drive to Taft and get them from 10percentfirearms.

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One more item I was thinking of. Would it not look or appear more legal if we were actually using a "TOOL" to remove the magazine. I understand the whole "a bullet is not your finger and therefore a tool" arguement, but a bullet is also a bullet. Soo, I was thinking of bringing some sort of "TOOL" with me to do the removing. Say an allen wrench or even better I have a pool chalk holder (to put in your pocket when playing pool) and it is black, but clearly not a bullet. Just a thought.

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Wouldn't if be a lot simpler just to have a design that requires a screw driver (or coin) to turn a half-turn cam lock to release the mag on a hunting AR? Or are we really trying to make an illegal assault rifle appear to be legal by using a bullet as a tool? If you really need the capability of changing out a dozen 30 rounds mags to defend your home then keep that gun close at hand in your home and don't take it hunting. If you do use it to defend your home you will still have some big time explaining to do because the gun is still illegal. Get yourself a 12ga tactical shotgun with a cylinder bore and load it up with as many shells you can get in it with the plug removed, strap your Clock (or whatever to your side) and fire away. Sure we can use the Second Amendment rights argument, but we are shoveling dog poop (for the record, I didn't say dog poop) against the tide. Are we giving the anti's more ammunition by showing that we are resourceful and can work around the "intent" of the law? If we can do it so can the gang bangers who we think should the ones denied their Second Amendment rights. It's a tough issue.And no, I don't hate black guns. I just think owning one can be more hassle than it is worth. We saw at least 15 vehicles in CP Sunday and they surely weren't hunters. That is the greatest number I have seen there in one day over the past ten years. Had we been hunting with "legal" ARs and any of the occupants of those 15 vehicles had called BLM, F&G or the sheriff it might have invoked a response that could have been unpleasant including the impounding of the rifles until you proved it was legal, a court appearance, attorney costs, etc. Someone mentioned Ten Percent Firearms. Ask Wes about the guy from Visalia who came to the shop about a month ago trying to get copies of receipts for his father who had bought accessories for his California-legal AR. In fact, as I recall, he was talking Keltec CAs. His father had a heart attack while working on the guns and the family called 911. Paramedics, the fire department and law enforcement all arrived in short order to assist his dad who was taken to the hospital. And THEN, the LEOs confiscated the illegal firearms and the son was trying to prove that the guns and accessories were California legal. Don't know the final outcome.I wish you guys luck with you sort of California-legal ARs. I don't think that "they" will let us get away with it much longer.Woodog

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Or are we really trying to make an illegal assault rifle appear to be legal by using a bullet as a tool? Woodog
We are not trying to make anything illegal appear legal. We are building AR 15's with OLL in a legal manner as the law allows. a OLL with a bullet button is not an assulat rifle per CA law. SO WE are not making something illegal legal, but building AR 15's in a configeration that meeet the requirments of the law. I was never interested in this type of gun then shot a friends squirrel hunting and enjoyed so now I want one. I thank the people who have made the process alot easier by asking the DOJ for clarification on laws and have challenged the law to allow me the freedom to make the choice of buidlign one of these rifles. Also when we start using terms and definitions the anti gunners have made up we buy into their whole game. What prevents them from coming after my semi auto shot gun I use for duck hunting next??? You do not have to want an AR 15, but as a gun owner I feel if I do not support efforts to prevent anti guns laws and for the staste, DOJ, and local goverments to enforce the laws as writen and not interpret them as they see fit then there is nothing to say one f your guns maybe next on the list. Robert

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Frank, thanks for posting that info. That does require more thought on the issue. Although, it would be better if someone went to court on it as this is all still one (or more) person's view of the law. But the posts you quoted make sense. I am still unsure if I personally would do it, as the cost of being wrong FAR, FAR out weights the good. I hope calguns.net updates all their info soon, that is the best source for info on our laws so it really needs to be up to date! I plan to print the memo from cg.net and keep it with my AR when out in public with it. Sure would be a lot better to have one that did not say that the mag well must always be full. As for using a "real" tool for the BB, not needed. DOJ has already agreed that a bullet is in fact a "tool" in their eyes so that is really not an issue for concern. Capitol, I have read up plenty. (too much over the past month, my head hurts) Take a look at the quotes I posted from calguns.net, I read those before I posted them :smiley_kewlpics: I still don't believe that an open mag well is an open and shut issue. There are still very big issues, one being that many of the LEO's I have asked have said they would arrest someone with an open mag well. These were guys I just asked off the street, some probably do not know what I am talking about but answer anyway. Good info guys!

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We are not trying to make anything illegal appear legal. We are building AR 15's with OLL in a legal manner as the law allows. a OLL with a bullet button is not an assulat rifle per CA law. SO WE are not making something illegal legal, but building AR 15's in a configeration that meeet the requirments of the law. Robert
We don't disagree Robert, but I believe that "meeting the requirement of the law" has yet to be defined. I guess I'll have to buy one of these damn black guns just to prove that I'm not against you all. :smiley_kewlpics: Damn, that means I'll have to put my Extrema II on hold for awhile. :( SteveH.

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I still don't believe that an open mag well is an open and shut issue. There are still very big issues, one being that many of the LEO's I have asked have said they would arrest someone with an open mag well. These were guys I just asked off the street, some probably do not know what I am talking about but answer anyway.
And there lies our problem. The CA DOJ refuses to put in print that we are correct OR wrong with our take on the BB. Instead of being pro-active and working with pro gun groups such as CalGuns to come to complete understanding of this law they (CA DOJ) would rather wait until they have their chance to ruin some guys life in court. They obviously don't trickle down the 41 through the law enforcement channels to make sure the officers out there know what the real answer is to this mystery. Then you have police officers out there who don't know what an OLL is or that it is legal to own. Or they do know of the OLL and don't know the definition of a detachable magazine according to CA law.The fact that all of these OLL owners are taking enough interest in the law to make sure they are legal speaks volumes to me, and not that they are looking for ways to make something illegal appear legal or to do an end run around the law. If we really didn't care about the law or following it we'd just take our OLL's home and build them with every "evil" feature we thought that we wanted.

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I guess I'll have to buy one of these damn black guns just to prove that I'm not against you all. :( Damn, that means I'll have to put my Extrema II on hold for awhile. :( SteveH.
Steve don't have to but one to prove anything lol i thing deep down inside you really want one and are just tryign to justify lol :smiley_kewlpics: Just do it admit you need one to fill that inner voidGet you Extrema II I think this turned into a great thread and now I want to order upper lol some one needs to buy the powder charger i have listed and that dang scroll saw so i can raise more funds. Any one think I could get $5,000 an hour like that lady with the NY Govenor, Got to be some women politicioan out their willing to spend big bucks for a cmale companion. LOL Robert

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Wouldn't if be a lot simpler just to have a design that requires a screw driver (or coin) to turn a half-turn cam lock to release the mag on a hunting AR? Or are we really trying to make an illegal assault rifle appear to be legal by using a bullet as a tool? Woodog
Woodog, I use a bullet because the CA DOJ wrote it specifically into the regulation that a bullet is a tool. They didn't define anything else, just a bullet. So being the cautious sort that I am, I use exactly what they wrote into the regulation.

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I think you hit the nail on the head Heath. It sure would be a lot easier if the state would do their job and write laws that people can understand. (can't be that hard) That is why I think it is so important for calguns.net to have updated info. I think a reasonable LEO would be hard pressed to arrest someone if that person had a copy of their AR memo on hand and could explain why the gun is NOT and assault rifle. The way it is written now shows that open mag = problems, would hate to explain to an LEO how calguns.net is wrong and I am right (if caught with an open mag well) I think most LEO's know about cg.netBut what can we do? Vote... too bad there isn't any good people to vote for! :smiley_kewlpics: With luck I'll be done with my background checks soon and be an LEO myself! :(

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I guess I'll have to buy one of these damn black guns just to prove that I'm not against you all. :signlol2iu: Damn, that means I'll have to put my Extrema II on hold for awhile. :( SteveH.
Come on over to the DARK SIDE!! We welcome you. :)SO, I guess you will be down at 10percent tomorrow starting your 10 days on your new lower? :)Who knows, maybe these will end up being terrible Coyote guns and I will end up getting a lighter bolt gun. But for now on my limited weapon budget I'm hoping this AR works well for the dogs. :(

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I ordered a predator (Bushmaster upper) and bought a fab10 lower. I'm fine with the 10 rnds and the fixedmag. I have reg AW's but you can't use them on DFG property any how so I bought te fab10. I have some AW's kept out of state which were legally obtained so when I decide to move out of state I'll them waiting. Just my .02

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I am ordering a 3 pack of lowers. Be jealous, be very jealous. I'm thinking a CMMG, a Stag and a Double Star...just for versatility. And if I told you how cheap I'm getting these you'd be upset. RRA stage 2 match trigger with at least one of them to boot. BB for all three, since they are OLL's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't believe I didn't do this sooner.

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Haha, I'm already getting excited, Heath. Too bad we just bought a house or I'd be buying the uppers too.

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Sounds to me like they have a similar bullet button type system for the AK's. But do some research because that's just what I've seen through reading up on the AR stuff, I didn't read that info in its entirety.

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My upper will be here Thursday the 20th. :pirashoot: I'll post some pics when I have it all together. I get my Muzzle brake, hogue grip and single point sling tomorrow. The Bushnell Browning 3-9x40 showed up last friday, and it is sweet! Nice bright glass plus the logo goes well with my Stag lower. ;) I just hope the high rings will be high enough for a good cheek weld. I may have to get a separate mount to raise it up. We will see Thursday night.Hey Woodog, wanna do some sighting in this weekend?

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so while we're talking parts kits ... what are the laws on aks in cali? I know you can get a parts kits and the 80% flat to make a receiver shipped here no problem from my understanding you can get the parts kit, but once you build it you're in trouble :pirashoot:
AK type weapons are treated just like AR type off list receivers. The actual CA Supreme Court case that overturned the State's "Series Ban" on "Assault Weapons" was brought by a guy who wanted to buy an AK type rifle.

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Steve are you sure you want your phone number out on a public forum? A PM might be better.
Good point, but who knows I may even get a call from a teenage girl! :pirashoot: I'll edit the post. Thanks.

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Just another primer....I received my muzzle brake, hogue grip, magpul trigger guard and single point sling last night. I installed the Hogue grip and it is a vast improvement over the plastic one. I started bangin on the roll pin to get the standard trigger guard out, but I decided not to push my luck. It was a PITA to get that pin in, and I am worried I am gonna break off the end of the receiver. I had been worried the muzzle brake was gonna be too big or too heavy, but is much smaller than I had pictured. It's gonna be just fine and should be about the same size as the A2 on my upper.I will get a pic up tonight of the lower with the hogue grip.Tomorrow night I get my Upper!! I hope to have it assembled and scope mounted tomorrow night. Then off to sight it in with Woodog on Saturday. ;)

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Well guys, I hate to admit this but I bought a Centermass lower yesterday and can pick it up on 2/28/08. Don't know what got into me. Actually, I have been thinking about it for a couple of weeks now, but thought I'd wait until Wanna built his AR so I could lean on him for help. :P I have no idea yet what the other components will be, but I'm shooting for the complete rifle, without scope, weighing in at close to 7 lb. Will probably go .223 for now because someone will surely have non-lead ammo for that popular bore. I'm working with Wes at Ten Percent Firearms and have him on a mission to keep both weight and price down. :751: Still seems weird to me that the lower, alone, is the part that gets registered.Here's a picture of me in my Black Gun outfit. :smiley-innocent-halo-yellow::bleh[1]: Woodog

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