wannakillacoyote

My AR build Start to Finish

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aquaelvias. Not to create issuesI just suggest to any interested in building an AR go to Calgun dot net. and read up. There are threadS over their and copies of letters from people who interpret the law for a living and you be your own judge. Juast don't want anyone here to be misinformed about the law. Thanks Robert

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Yep Robert, that is the place to find answers. (that is why I put it in my other post) If you read the AR memo on the first page it is very clear that their position it to NEVER remove a mag while the evil stuff is still attached. A lot of people argue it but it seems pretty clear to me. The other logical thing to consider, even IF it is not a felony you would need to spend EVERYTHING you have to prove it is OK. (whick means going up against the DOJ!) It is not worth ruining your life, just take the top off. I know several LEO's that are chomping at the bit to see someone pull a mag out at the range. Once the mag well is open and the pistol grip, flash hidder, etc are still attached... cuffs are going on and we will see what happens in court. I know it won't be me!!!

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You guys have fun loading from the top! i am sure it will get boring after a while.
You should look into the OLL's a little more. We can legally own AR's and not have to load from the top.

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My understanding (and this was just reaffirmed by Robert over the phone) is that the whole POINT of the bullet button is to make the AR legal in CA. As Robert describes it...like a locking door, you have to both unlock to get in and unlock to get out. Regardless of if your magazine is out or not, your GUN is still legal because of the tool (bullet button) that has to be used to remove that magazine. Maybe top loading will help you to not draw attention to yourself, but it isn't necessary in my estimation of the law.

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PC 12276.1A semiautomatic centerfire rifle capable of accepting detachable magazines and any of: ▪ a pistol grip protruding conspicuously below the weapon’s action ▪ a thumbhole stock or folding or telescopic stock; ▪ a flash suppressor, grenade launcher or flare launcher; ▪ a forward pistol grip.A semiautomatic centerfire rifle with overall length of less than 30 inches;A semiautomatic centerfire rifle with a fixed magazine holding over 10 rounds.Ok, so this is pretty simple. (maybe not) The law is pretty clear. A semiautomatic centerfire rifle capable of accepting detachable magazines and any ofSo, an AR rifle:IS semiautoIS centerfireSo as long as there is a FIXED mag in the well, it is NOT capable of accepting a detachable magazine. (not an assault rifle but just a long gun) CA has already agreed that a mag that requires a "tool" to remove would not be considered removable. (already agreed that a bullet tip is a "tool") Now the scary part... a LEO sees you at the range. He picks up your AR (with all the "evil" parts on it) and sees an open mag well. Now, are you in possesion of a rifle capable of accepting detachable magazines? Many people say yes. The problem is a chicken or an egg. Once a mag is in place, your rifle can not accept a detachable mag, once removed... who knows? From calguns.net:Only after a fixed low-capacity magazine is attached and screwed down should the pistol grip and/or folding or telestock be attached. Conversely, if the fixed magazine on the rifle needs to be removed for repair or cleaning, the pistol grip and/or telestock, folding stock or thumbhole stock must be removed first.NEVER HAVE AN OFF-LIST LOWER RECEIVER WITH AN OPEN MAGAZINE WELL AND A PISTOL GRIP OR FOLDING (etc.) STOCK STILL ATACHED - EVEN FOR A MOMENT!! ALSO, NEVER PUT A BARRELED UPPER RECEIVER WITH A FLASH HIDER ON AN OFF-LIST LOWER , UNLESS A NONDETACHABLE LO-CAP MAG HAS ALREADY BEEN AFFIXED.See : http://calguns.net/a_california_arak.htm

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Still not a big deal... load from the top or just pull the upper off. (or switch the mag if you are feeling lucky) Just don't ever do it at the range!!!You will be at the mercy of your local DA.The biggest problem here is that it is a FELONY. It is not like hunting on some land that you think might be public. You can roll the dice on that but this would make you a felon... no voting, no hunting, no guns... EVER :smiley_kewlpics:

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Please read further.The DOJ regulations define "detachable magazine" as any magazine that doesn't require a tool to remove. A bullet tip is considered a tool. Thus the bullet button (BB) was designed and produced. The magazine is irrelevant. What makes the BB legal is that it converts the rifle in such a way that it forces the user to use a tool to release the magazine EVERY TIME a magazine is attached. Thus rendering the rifle incapable of accepting a detachable magazine.So, no matter the state of the rifle (magazine in, magazine out or on its way out), it still can't accept a detachable magazine.

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Well, you can think that way. The important thing not to over-look is that at the EXACT time you have a "evil" AR and drop the mag you have now made something else. (felony) It widely accepted by calguns.net that an open mag well on an "off list lower" is a felony. A good thread on the bullet button is here:http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthr...802&page=14Since you are local I would caution you NOT to bring an open mag well / bullet button AR to Five Dogs!!!In any event, I spent 12 hours over a 2 day period reading hundreds of posts about this topic. Originally I was with the bullet button makes everything OK camp, but lots of reading changed my mind. If calguns.net says NOT to do it, I'll stick with them. To each his own but people should know there are big risks when having an open mag well on an AR in CA.Also, do your BB's need a tool to put the mag in? (or just to take out)

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I know several LEO's that are chomping at the bit to see someone pull a mag out at the range.
If they do arrest someone while off duty for this they better prey that the court agrees with them or they could find themselves in an ugly law suite.

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If they do arrest someone while off duty for this they better prey that the court agrees with them or they could find themselves in an ugly law suite.
I am no expert but I am pretty sure that if they see a felony being committed, they HAVE to do something. I do know that many of them call it in, then give a statemement when an on duty LEO shows up. Then they are a witness. (but carry more weight in court, as they are LE) I know a few guys that have done that on DUI's and domestics while off duty.

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Agreed. But if this hypothetical case were to happen, or when it does, and the case were to be dismissed the ambulance chasers would be lined up to file law suites on the guys behalf against the officer(s). Just as I wouldn't want to be the guy arrested I wouldn't want to be the arresting officer if the BB were found to be legal. Too many less than clear laws for my liking.This very topic is why I just decided to take my OLL back to MO over a year ago and leave it there. If the DOJ ever sorts this mess out it (my OLL) is registered in my name here in KA so I can always bring it back.

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I have read everything everyone has to say . some believe it is legal and others believe it is not . I have in excess of $25,000. worth of guns and if they take one they may want them all . I do not risk it . also just because you are not prosecuded does not mean that an officer cannot arrest you nor confiscate your firearm(s) until the d.a. desides otherwise . That's why zi load from the top . too much too risk and not deep enough pockets .

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Man, you guys have me freaked out now. I don't think I will even take it to 5 dogs (no need to have all those eyes on me). I'm also thinking that when out hunting, I will just take one magazine (so it doesn't appear that I could rapidly switch magazines). And I guess, lastly if anyone other than my hunting party is around, I will open the top to load. This kinda sucks though as everything I had read (including calguns.net) said the bullet button makes it all OK. I even started my own post a couple days ago asking about having flash supressors,and everyone said I am totally legal if I have the BB. I don't want to be illegal, but I do plan to use my AR as my primary Yote gun, so I will be out with it often. :roflmao3[1]:

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Just my opinion here, if your building a bench gun or a real accurate shooter, why would you want a telescopic stock? I would try every way possible to make mine look like less of an "assault weapon". People are lame and why bring attention to yourself? Even if it is totally legal, too many LEO’s do not know the law and once they get your gun.. Good luck on getting it back.

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Well, you can think that way. The important thing not to over-look is that at the EXACT time you have a "evil" AR and drop the mag you have now made something else. (felony) It widely accepted by calguns.net that an open mag well on an "off list lower" is a felony. A good thread on the bullet button is here:http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthr...802&page=14Since you are local I would caution you NOT to bring an open mag well / bullet button AR to Five Dogs!!!In any event, I spent 12 hours over a 2 day period reading hundreds of posts about this topic. Originally I was with the bullet button makes everything OK camp, but lots of reading changed my mind. If calguns.net says NOT to do it, I'll stick with them. To each his own but people should know there are big risks when having an open mag well on an AR in CA.Also, do your BB's need a tool to put the mag in? (or just to take out)
I don't just think that way, I also rely on the collective brain trust at Calguns.net. I've been a regular there since 2004 and have over 4,000 posts on that board. When the Bullet Button first came out over a year ago the common opinion was that removing the magazine would make the gun illegal until calmer heads prevailed and a strict interpretation of the law as written was applied. Now it is the concensus opinion that the law specifically requires that if the rifle requires a tool to detach the magazine that it is legal in any configuration.I have had my top loading and BB equipped rifles at 5 Dogs numerous times and the only questions that I get are "How do I get one?". I point them toward Calguns.net. The Bullet Button is designed to comply with the exact definition in the law that says a it is not a detachable magazine if it requires a tool to remove it from the gun.The law says: (underline added by me)5469. (a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. How the magazine is put in the rifle does not matter to California law Here is the exact law defining Assault Weapons characteristics: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/chapter39.pdfHere is the definitive post on the subject by HoffmanG:http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthr...open+Magwell%22More recent postings on the subject are here:http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthr...open+Magwell%22http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthr...open+Magwell%22http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthr...open+Magwell%22And do you think that Wes (Ten Percent Firearms) would put this up on his website if he thought that is was even marginally questionable?http://www.tenpercentfirearms.com/index.php?main_page=ar15People should assess their own risk tolerence but I just wanted to get more information out as opposed to just one person's opinion.

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How good of an idea would it be to have a sticky with CA legal AR builds of the guns in the club, I know it would help me when I go to build mine. I know there's a bunch of other sites out there that have it (Calguns, etc.) but why not have info straight from the guys we all know? Just a thought.

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Is HoffmanG an attorney? I am not great at deciphering leagaleze and would love to get more opinions from those who are in he business.

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. . .I'm also thinking that when out hunting, I will just take one magazine (so it doesn't appear that I could rapidly switch magazines). And I guess, lastly if anyone other than my hunting party is around, I will open the top to load. . . . I don't want to be illegal, but I do plan to use my AR as my primary Yote gun, so I will be out with it often. :roflmao3[1]:
If your are using an AR as your primary hunting rifle do your really need the capability to "rapidly switch magazines"? Chances are that if you load ten rounds at the begining of the day you will have eight to ten rounds still in the mag at the end of the day. You can always top load a round or two after you shoot if you really feel that you need that ten-round capability. If you really had an opportunity to fire ten quick rounds while hunting I would like to go with you. My guess is that the barrel will be so hot after ten quick rounds are pumped through it that you won't know where the last few rounds went. The possibilty of a quick follow up shot or two is why I bought a Keltec SU-16A. The removable mag is a bonus because it allows you to quickly unload the rifle for transporting in a vehicle. Unloading a ten-round top loading mag is a real pain in the butt. The removable mag has turned out to be more important to me than having ten rounds at my immediate disposal.No matter who interprets the law it doesn't mean a thing until it is tested in a court of law and I wouldn't want to be the subject of that test case. If I were a gun dealer I would not want some pointing to my web site as verification that something is legal as a means of defense in a court case.

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Fjold, maybe we aren't talking about the same point. I am 100% in agreement that you can have an off list lower AR style rifle in CA. If it has a bullet button you can have all the evil stuff. My concern is what that rifle becomes when the mag is removed. You keep talking about the bullet button, which is fine but I am talking open mag well.

I don't just think that way, I also rely on the collective brain trust at Calguns.net. I've been a regular there since 2004 and have over 4,000 posts on that board.
Every quote I have posted is FROM calguns.net.
From calguns.net:Only after a fixed low-capacity magazine is attached and screwed down should the pistol grip and/or folding or telestock be attached. Conversely, if the fixed magazine on the rifle needs to be removed for repair or cleaning, the pistol grip and/or telestock, folding stock or thumbhole stock must be removed first.NEVER HAVE AN OFF-LIST LOWER RECEIVER WITH AN OPEN MAGAZINE WELL AND A PISTOL GRIP OR FOLDING (etc.) STOCK STILL ATACHED - EVEN FOR A MOMENT!! ALSO, NEVER PUT A BARRELED UPPER RECEIVER WITH A FLASH HIDER ON AN OFF-LIST LOWER , UNLESS A NONDETACHABLE LO-CAP MAG HAS ALREADY BEEN AFFIXED.See : http://calguns.net/a_california_arak.htm
Those quotes are ALL from CG.net's web site, from THEIR AR pages. (not posts from misc users but from CG.net themselves.)
The Bullet Button is designed to comply with the exact definition in the law that says a it is not a detachable magazine if it requires a tool to remove it from the gun.
Yep, right on. My point though, when the mag well is full, it is not able to accept a removable mag. If a mag is IN the well, no other mag can be attached, right? OK, it is legal. Take the mag out (with evil features still attached) and now the gun is capable of accepting a detachable mag. That is the letter of the law. Could you stick a modified mag in at that time that would not allow the BB to work? Yes. So, at the time the well is OPEN, the rifle is capable of accepting a detachable mag and in an assault rifle. The law is not about the detaching mag, it is about the capability of attchment. (with a mag in place there is NO way to attach a detachable magazine, with an open well there is)
And do you think that Wes (Ten Percent Firearms) would put this up on his website if he thought that is was even marginally questionable?http://www.tenpercentfirearms.com/index.php?main_page=ar15
Also you mentioned Wes, I read you link and see no place where he says it is OK to have the mag out of the gun. In fact, I have not read that in any link. But on that page you linked to he also links a page on calguns.net:From him site:
For more detailed information you can refer to the Bill Wiese California AR/AK Series Assault Weapon FAQ
The quote from Bill Wiese's page on calguns.net clears states: (in type size & in it's own box on the page) NEVER HAVE AN OFF-LIST LOWER RECEIVER WITH AN OPEN MAGAZINE WELL AND A PISTOL GRIP OR FOLDING (etc.) STOCK STILL ATACHED - EVEN FOR A MOMENT!! ALSO, NEVER PUT A BARRELED UPPER RECEIVER WITH A FLASH HIDER ON AN OFF-LIST LOWER , UNLESS A NONDETACHABLE LO-CAP MAG HAS ALREADY BEEN AFFIXED.So the people that Wes links people to For more detailed information (his words) agree that you should never have an open mag well. And calguns.net agress. So if you have a link that has info about open mag wells being OK, please post it. I have not seen it and would like to. Also, I am not trying to be a dick here, this is really important stuff. (a felony could ruin someone's life) If it as you say, hell I'd be very happy. That would be awesome. I originally thought the same way you do about the bullet button. Only after hours of reading did I learn otherwise. But like I said, if there is info to the contrary, please let me (us) know. I'd be happy to be wrong in this case! People should not be freaked out about getting an AR though. There is only one sticking point that I have seen. (open mag well) Everything else seems fine. In my case, I want to use it for coyotes and messing around. It will not be a big deal to load from the top. (or pull the upper off, 2 pins, and switch the mag) If you wanted to go out and blast away, maybe that would be a drag but for me I don't think it will be anything to worry about. Hell, they hold 10 rounds! If I was close to my truck, I don't think I would worry to much about switching mags while the rifle was on the backseat. I just would not do it while it was out in the open. (but, to each his own)

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Yep, right on. My point though, when the mag well is full, it is not able to accept a removable mag. If a mag is IN the well, no other mag can be attached, right? OK, it is legal. Take the mag out (with evil features still attached) and now the gun is capable of accepting a detachable mag. That is the letter of the law. Could you stick a modified mag in at that time that would not allow the BB to work? Yes. So, at the time the well is OPEN, the rifle is capable of accepting a detachable mag and in an assault rifle. The law is not about the detaching mag, it is about the capability of attchment. (with a mag in place there is NO way to attach a detachable magazine, with an open well there is)
The bullet button requires a tool to reinsert the magazine. So it is not a etachable mag per the letter of the law. You can not just put the magazine back into the gun you must use a tool to do this so with an empty magazine well and a bullet button you are meeting the ltter of the law. SHooter I think this would make a great sticky. A very educational thread for all too read. Every comment has cuased me to go reread information to make sure I feel safe dropping the mag on my OLL with a bullet button in place. thank you everyone for their great input Robert

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The bullet button requires a tool to reinsert the magazine
You can not just put the magazine back into the gun you must use a tool to do this so with an empty magazine well and a bullet button
I can't speak for your BB but mine is not like that. I called my FFL and asked him if he knows of any that require the tool to be used to put the mag in and he does not. (what brand is yours, I think mine is a Prince 50)My BB is like a normal mag release, you just need a "tool" instead of a finger to pop it out. And like all other mags I have seen, you just slide it back in and it locks into place.

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If your are using an AR as your primary hunting rifle do your really need the capability to "rapidly switch magazines"? The possibilty of a quick follow up shot or two is why I bought a Keltec SU-16A. The removable mag is a bonus because it allows you to quickly unload the rifle for transporting in a vehicle. Unloading a ten-round top loading mag is a real pain in the butt. The removable mag has turned out to be more important to me than having ten rounds at my immediate disposal.
I was actually thinking about this today. It would be a rare occasion to shoot more than a few rounds in a day Coyote hunting. In that scenario, I would definitely not need an additional mag. If I was to use this for jacks or squirrels, the numbers could go up. Still, it would not be that big of a deal to break the top open and reload.One other thing, it was my understanding that while in a hunting area, as long as your Rifle was unloaded (no round in the chamber) and was not within reach while driving, you could keep rounds in the magazine. In a AR it would be hard to have a mag in, and a round not chambered unless you just had the bolt open (that is unless you removed the Non-removable magazine). :rofl2: Does that make sense?
Just my opinion here, if your building a bench gun or a real accurate shooter, why would you want a telescopic stock? I would try every way possible to make mine look like less of an "assault weapon". People are lame and why bring attention to yourself?
If you were talking to me, I want this to be accurate, but this will not be a 200+yd AR. I am building this to be small and light for quick movement but hopefully pretty accurate to 150+yds. Therefore the adjustable stock fit the bill.Hopefully you are talking about the LEO's being lame in not knowing the letter of the law. :drinks: I'm one of those guys that makes it a point not to break laws. I'm very particular about that. I know we are a dying breed, but I follow the rules. In this case, I feel we are not breaking any laws, but I will try to avoid any un-needed attention while still using my AR.
I can't speak for your BB but mine is not like that. I called my FFL and asked him if he knows of any that require the tool to be used to put the mag in and he does not. (what brand is yours, I think mine is a Prince 50)My BB is like a normal mag release, you just need a "tool" instead of a finger to pop it out. And like all other mags I have seen, you just slide it back in and it locks into place.
You are correct. My magazine when it arrives will just slide right into my BB receiver. No tool required.As for the law on how the magazine is removed or whether it can accept a removable magazine, they seem like two separate laws to me. I haven't went to the other links provided, but they appear to be referencing opposite issues. :roflmao3[1]: Hey everybody, look at me......I've been pinned!!!Hope to have my evil upper by early next week. :)

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