blingslinger

TSS use for Predators and at a Lower Price Point

28 posts in this topic

I am a new guy here, although a few may have seen me on a few other forums as well. I Just wanted to touch base with you guys, and see if there are any here that are using Tungsten Super Shot (TSS) in their shotguns for predators. To go along with that I wanted to see if there was an interest in TSS if the price point was considerably lower than the current going rate?  TSS being that it is approximately 60% heavier than lead at 18 g/cc density, and is non-toxic, has been used for turkeys and waterfowl for a few years now, and I wanted to try and open eyes to the usefulness that TSS could be to the predator hunting community.
 

Below is some info that I picked up from dabob (I believe he is a member here), he ran some of these numbers through his KPY ballistics calculator, and the ongoing number to consistently kill a coyote, seems to be that you need 3.70" of ballistic gelatin penetration. So using the heavier TSS you can use smaller size shot, putting more pellets on target, and still get the penetration you need to consistently kill, and do it with a non-toxic shot. This would be a great alternative to some of the weapons restricted hunting areas in California.

 

Here are some examples of what the smaller size TSS can do:

1300 fps TSS #6 gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 46 yards

1300 fps TSS #5 gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 62 yards

1300 fps TSS #4 gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 78 yards

1300 fps TSS #2 gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 115 yards

1400 fps TSS #6 gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 51 yards

1400 fps TSS #5 gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 67 yards

1400 fps TSS #4 gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 85 yards

1400 fps TSS #2 gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 129 yards

 

And to compare several different #2 sized pellets at ~60 yards as to their engergy, velocity, and penetration performance:

All these pellets were started at a muzzle velocity of 1350 fps.

1) Steel #2 shot, 1.07" of gel penetration at 59.8 yards, 2.13 energy, 522 fps at 59.8 yards

2) Lead #2 shot, 2.38" of gel penetration at 59.8 yards, 4.75 energy, 660 fps at 59.8 yards

3) Rem HD #2 shot, 2.82" of gel penetration at 59.8 yards, 5.69 energy, 691 fps at 59.8 yards

4) Fed HW #2 shot, 4.17" of gel penetration at 59.8 yards, 8.81 energy, 770 fps at 59.8 yards

5) TSS #2 shot, 5.56" of gel penetration at 59.8 yards, 12.18 energy, 826 fps at 59.8 yards








 

 

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7 minutes ago, Yateswell said:

I'll be interested to try, Bob knows what he is talking about

After talking with Bob here and there, I agree.

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TSS is very hard to get . Heavy shot ,such as dead coyote is barley heavier than lead . 2 great coyote loads for the shotgun for me has come down to heavyshot in "b" shot ,and Winchester varmint x bb with shotlock . Both have devastating patterns to 60 yards.  I have gave up on dead coyote in t" shot as it doesn't pattern well . 

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9 hours ago, ehd said:

TSS is very hard to get . Heavy shot ,such as dead coyote is barley heavier than lead . 2 great coyote loads for the shotgun for me has come down to heavyshot in "b" shot ,and Winchester varmint x bb with shotlock . Both have devastating patterns to 60 yards.  I have gave up on dead coyote in t" shot as it doesn't pattern well . 

Actually TSS is very simple to get, especially the larger sizes, and at $38/lb, it's cheaper to load than Hevishot Dead Coyote or federal heavyweight coyote loads are to buy, before shipping or taxes.

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I believe they quit making the federal heavyweight stuff. It was a great load . I still have a case of it. The best shooter by far is the varmint x . They use a polymer around the shot to hold it together. Patterns are exceptional with all chokes. Unfortunately, it is lead so  you theoretically shouldn't use it.

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Back on topic, TSS will out preform any of the commercial tungsten based coyote loads, you can load it cheaper, and it's very readily available. 

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Back to your topic on tungsten,the secret to any of it is good consistent patterns at longer distances. That  seems to be the challenge. 

ShooterJohn likes this

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TSS is fairly easy to achieve consistent patterns. It likes a more open choke. Also the advantages in patterns of TSS over Hevi, is the consistent size and shape of the pellets, allowing much better patterns. The advantages over the federal shells, are the difference in a conventional wad, over the Flight Control Wad (a conventional wad will outperform a FCW 100% of the time). Also once you have your load nailed down, you can load as many as you need, when you need them, you also have no worries of a manufacturer changing the recipe. This means known consistency from shot to shot.

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Show me some 60 yard patterns and I'll buy what your selling.here is a 50 yard acceptable target with BB . This kills coyotes dead.E0B4D01F-6397-4801-8835-A70A1721AE8F_zps

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9 minutes ago, ehd said:

Show me some 60 yard patterns and I'll buy what your selling.here is a 50 yard acceptable target with BB . This kills coyotes dead.E0B4D01F-6397-4801-8835-A70A1721AE8F_zps

10-4, let me get some #2s for testing, and I will post some patterns.

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Better yet I would like to see the patterns in b or bb size shot . 

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4 minutes ago, ehd said:

Better yet I would like to see the patterns in b or bb size shot . 

There is no need in B or BB shot, TSS #2s will give you plenty of energy and penetration to anchor a coyote, well past 100 yds, and they give you more pellets per ounce than B or BB, giving you a greater pattern density, which means more consistent kills.

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Maybe it's just how I was raised, but it always surprises me when I hear about shotguns and coyotes, especially with lead free. A simple lever gun in say .30-30 would be lighter and easier to carry, not to mention a ton more energy, literally. No to mention it will reach way, wat further for those that I hear about all the time that won't quite come into shotgun range. As well as way, way cheaper to load, even lead free. 

I realize not all were brought up shooting running game with rifles, even scoped, like we were, but even rabbits at 40 or 50 yards really isn't all that hard, and they are a tremendously smaller target. Like I said, just curious as I've never seen much of a down side to it?

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9 minutes ago, Bisley said:

Maybe it's just how I was raised, but it always surprises me when I hear about shotguns and coyotes, especially with lead free. A simple lever gun in say .30-30 would be lighter and easier to carry, not to mention a ton more energy, literally. No to mention it will reach way, wat further for those that I hear about all the time that won't quite come into shotgun range. As well as way, way cheaper to load, even lead free. 

I realize not all were brought up shooting running game with rifles, even scoped, like we were, but even rabbits at 40 or 50 yards really isn't all that hard, and they are a tremendously smaller target. Like I said, just curious as I've never seen much of a down side to it?

Like you said, there are a lot of people out there that weren't raised shooting at running critters, with a rifle.

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Out to 70-80 yards A rifle has 1 bullet a shotgun has many many many more pellets. I'll take a shotgun for more chances of hits

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Out to 70-80 yards A rifle has 1 bullet a shotgun has many many many more pellets. I'll take a shotgun for more chances of hits

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I was raised with a 30-30 . Had one since I was 9 years old. With that said if I have a pair of hard charging coyotes , I'll take the shotgun any day of the week. Why I like a 50-60yard gun is after you dump the first one at 35 yards the second is at 50 time you get on to him in the brush. On the note of number 2 shot ,it will work , but once you apply it in the field you will want the largest shot that will pattern as coyotes are tough to kill. Add some brush and distance and number 2 shot is going to leave you wishin. I have tried it and not impressed.

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10 hours ago, ehd said:

I was raised with a 30-30 . Had one since I was 9 years old. With that said if I have a pair of hard charging coyotes , I'll take the shotgun any day of the week. Why I like a 50-60yard gun is after you dump the first one at 35 yards the second is at 50 time you get on to him in the brush. On the note of number 2 shot ,it will work , but once you apply it in the field you will want the largest shot that will pattern as coyotes are tough to kill. Add some brush and distance and number 2 shot is going to leave you wishin. I have tried it and not impressed.

Have you shot 18 g/cc, #2 TSS, at coyotes?

Also, that BB pattern you posted, what load is that (Fed Heavyweight, Hevi Dead Coyote, or lead BBs)?

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The load is the varmint x 3" bb . I get the same result with a "b" 3-1/2" of heavy shot.the b shot is more dense than the t"shot that heavyshot makes. This was according to heavyshot when I talked to them. I haven't shot coyotes with 18 tss. Nor do I know anybody who has. Looking forward to seeing your patterns, results.

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On 4/23/2017 at 7:30 PM, ehd said:

I was raised with a 30-30 . Had one since I was 9 years old. With that said if I have a pair of hard charging coyotes , I'll take the shotgun any day of the week. Why I like a 50-60yard gun is after you dump the first one at 35 yards the second is at 50 time you get on to him in the brush. On the note of number 2 shot ,it will work , but once you apply it in the field you will want the largest shot that will pattern as coyotes are tough to kill. Add some brush and distance and number 2 shot is going to leave you wishin. I have tried it and not impressed.

 

 TSS shot is almost pure Tungsten, the military uses tungsten in some of the rounds that are made to penetrate into armored tanks. TSS shot is very had and very heavy for it's size. It doesn't slow down nearly as fast as lead shot does.

A lead BB pellet weighs just a little more than a TSS #2 pellet weighs. The TSS #2 pellet is much harder than a lead BB pellet and it is smaller so the TSS pellets have less wind resistance and they penetrate and break bones much better than the soft lead pellets do.

From KPY Shotshell Ballistic Software.

Lead BB shot at 1300 fps gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 46.1 yards.

TSS #2 shot at 1300 fps gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 115.5 yards.

Comparing these two shot types are about like comparing a golf ball "TSS #2 shot" to a tennis ball "lead BB shot".

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Thanks for the info dabob, that is exactly what alot of people don't understand.

TSS and lead are two totally different animals!

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One of the big advantages of TSS shot is it has much less wind resistance than lead shot.

I just put some shot types and sizes into my KPY Shotshell Ballistic program and came up with some interesting numbers.

I had to change the gel penetration set point around to get the distances all to come out to 62.3 yards. The speeds on all of these loads are 1250 fps at the muzzle. I think that 3.70" of gel penetration is a good requirement to reliably kill or breakdown coyotes.

Lead BB 1250 fps, time to 62.3 yards is .212 sec, gel penetration 3.11", speed at 62.3 yards 682 fps
TSS #4 1250 fps, time to 62.3 yards is .203 sec, gel penetration 4.15", speed at 62.3 yards 737 fps
TSS #3 1250 fps, time to 62.3 yards is .199 sec, gel penetration 4.68", speed at 62.3 yards 760 fps
TSS #2 1250 fps, time to 62.3 yards is .197 sec, gel penetration 5.20", speed at 62.3 yards 778 fps
Lead 4 Buck 1250 fps, time to 62.3 yds .199 sec, gel penetration 5.00", speed at 62.3 yards 772 fps

A Number 4 buckshot pellet weighs over twice as much as a TSS #2 shot pellet does but the smaller diameter TSS # 2 pellet retains more speed.

A 1-1/2 oz load of TSS #3 shot has 100 pellets per shell.
A 1-1/2 oz load of TSS #2 shot has 81 pellets per shell.
A 1-7/8 oz load of lead #4 buck has 41 pellets per shell.

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As I don't load shotgun shells ,I was hoping to find a reloader that sells loaded ammo to try the shot. I'm going to be testing a new shotgun I ordered. A Remington versamax tactical. Hopefully going to be a great coyote tool with my dogs.

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Yesterday I re-loaded thirty 2-3/4" 1-5/8 oz loads of TSS #3 shot, there is 102 pellets in each shell. At 1250 fps TSS #3 shot gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 93.3 yards. Lead BB shot at 1250 fps gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 43.7 yards.

Just to give you an idea how how dense TSS shot is, 1-5/8 oz of TSS shot fits into a CSD-078   7/8 oz steel shot wad with room to spare.

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